The Better Learning Podcast focuses on improvement at all levels of K-12 education. It features discussions with education leaders. industry experts, and changemakers covering various aspects of the learning experience.
The podcast provides valuable insights and practical advice to break down the silos of education and actively drive change!
October 30, 2024
Are you a new school leader wondering how to create learning spaces that truly engage students and foster success?
In the latest episode of the Better Learning Podcast, Dr. David Cupolo, principal of St. James Intermediate School, shares valuable insights on the profound impact of school design on student engagement. In his conversation with Kevin Stoller, Dr. Cupolo highlights how thoughtful learning environments can transform education and offers essential lessons for new leaders navigating this journey.
Dr. Cupolo also explores how instructional leaders can drive change by focusing on both physical spaces and the school culture. He underscores the idea that a well-designed building must be paired with a culture that prioritizes student growth and active listening. When students feel heard and supported, they thrive in environments that encourage collaboration, exploration, and a genuine sense of excitement for learning.
For new school leaders, this episode is filled with actionable tips, from the importance of understanding the "why" behind school design decisions to embracing flexibility in both space and teaching. Whether you're aiming to enhance student agency, foster collaborative learning, or simply reimagine your school's layout, this conversation provides the guidance you need to take the first steps.
Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/W67K6Sof2J4
Takeaways:
- Schools should be designed with the needs of students in mind.
- Creating engaging learning environments can reduce boredom and increase student success.
- Student agency is essential for effective learning.
- Research can guide the design and use of educational spaces.
- It's important to reflect on the 'why' behind educational practices.
- Building a positive school culture is as important as the physical space.
- Listening to students can provide valuable insights into their learning experiences.
- Homework often has minimal impact on student learning outcomes.
Dr. David Cupolo has 18 years of experience in educational leadership as a building principal, including eight years at a cutting-edge, non-traditional facility; I offer a blend of practical experience and academic insight. Recently, I earned a Ph.D., during which my dissertation research delved into how instructional leaders understand and engage with the concept of 'learning thrill,' utilizing a framework developed by esteemed educational researcher John Hattie.
The results of my research have profound implications for the design and renovation of school facilities and classrooms, highlighting crucial conditions that facilitate learning. I have presented on the topic of flexible learning environments at various conferences, most notably at three Association for Learning Environment (A4LE) Conferences, including the 2024 Southeast Region Conference this past April.
Sound Bites:
"You can have beautiful buildings and be an ugly culture."
"Kids want to collaborate and explore."
"We need to trust kids and listen to them."
"Learning thrill can be developed in schools."
Follow David Cupolo on Social Media:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-cupolo-6b4a1623/
Read David's Article Designing for Learning Thrill
Spaces4Learning Article: https://spaces4learning.com/Articles/2024/07/09/Designing-for-Learning-Thrill.aspx
Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.
Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Find out more about Kevin at https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinstoller/.
For more episodes of the Better Learning Podcast, visit https://www.betterlearningpodcast.com/
Episode 202 of the Better Learning Podcast
Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.
For more information on our partners:
Association for Learning Environments (A4LE) - https://www.a4le.org/
Education Leaders' Organization - https://www.ed-leaders.org/
Second Class Foundation - https://secondclassfoundation.org/
EDmarket - https://www.edmarket.org/
Catapult @ Penn GSE - https://catapult.gse.upenn.edu/
Want to be a Guest Speaker? Request on our website
Transcript:
Kevin Stoller (00:07.454)
It's another episode of the Better Learning Podcast. I am excited about our guests today because we talk a lot about furniture and use and we can talk about it from like the designers and from the architects and what we do supporting education from the outside. But it's always good to get the perspective of the principals and the ones that are actually like using the spaces and hearing from the teachers and the students and being able to have that lens to it. So I'm excited to bring in Dr. David Capolo.
I screwed it up, I? Did I announce it? Did I pronounce it?
David Cupolo
It's Koo-pal-o! It's all good.
Kevin Stoller
Yep, and he's a principal at St. James Intermediate School in Horry County in South Carolina. Just for the audience, because I'll give you a little behind the scenes, I'm horrible at pronunciation and making sure I do it. And whenever I get it stuck in my head, it's so hard to switch it.
David Cupolo
It's why I don't read names at award ceremonies.
Kevin Stoller
I know because I'll get it stuck and I'm afraid I'm gonna mess up and I'm not the expert of that Yeah, I'm the worst. I'm like give me a script and I'll and I'll screw it up. So yeah, but but I really wanted to talk about from your perspective of where you got to what you're talking about like the thrill and getting rid of the boredom, but I want to start really from the from the very beginning for you and I want to hear what was school like for you.
David Cupolo
So I knew how to play the game. I knew how to be successful in school. And honestly, if I had a relationship and you built curiosity and made connection with me, it was an A. If you did not, I was a B for bye-bye, that type of thing. And C for see you later. It all depended. And came from a family of engineers and I chose to go into public teaching and education, which is great. But I think I was not...
That curiosity and connection for me in learning was not built in the area of math. was just too much of that skill and drill. so, but I played it well, you know, went on to college in Version, New Hampshire, and then a few master's degree at NC State. And that's where I really learned how to learn.
Kevin Stoller (02:33.058)
So talk about that, that learning to learn. What sparked that for you?
David Cupolo
I think it was, again, professors who allowed that agency, me to have that agency and explore the interests that I had, they gave the structural framework, but you really had to go do the work yourself and, you know, find those connections and challenge you. And I think there's the principle of Goldilocks, right? You know, that Goldilocks effect. And I think that had the right enough challenge and also the right enough support, but also the right enough freedom to, you know, take my learning further.
Yeah, kind of push me.
Kevin Stoller
OK. All right. So you usually when I when I talk to administrators, school leaders in there, there's like the big transition moments. There's the first one be like making that decision. Hey, I want to go into education. And then that typically puts them in a classroom. And then there's that second moment where they're like, you know what? I think I want to be outside of the classroom. I can have a different impact as an administrator. What were those moments like for you?
David Cupolo
Yeah, so I came into education teaching alternatively. I was not certified. I was working for a lessons called which transition program in Rhode Island and the police refer to something causing trouble. They have a different a, but these kids are just needed some more guidance, right? You know, and so I found out there was a lot of jobs teaching in North Carolina. So I moved down, taught special ed.
And it was interesting, my boss at the time said, you're a middle school teacher. I won't give a recommendation for anywhere. He goes, you connect with those kids. And I did it in, you know, in that timeframe, I quickly realized I want to have a bigger impact, you know? And I realized I could, I think. The students taught me so much that I realized, wow, what they're teaching me, I need to share it and need to use to impact other kids in other classrooms. So administratively, and you always have that principle that I think says,
Hey, you should go and be an administrator. And I had a couple of those who did that and lo and behold, quickly moved into assistant principal roles. And now I'm in my, going to year 19 as a...
Kevin Stoller
19 years. That's awesome. First.
David Cupolo
Thank you. Thank you.
Kevin Stoller (04:54.062)
I mean, we're, we're record, we're recording right now at the beginning of, of August, even though it doesn't, it won't release until later, but you're getting, you're getting ready for the next round of teacher students coming through. What's going through your mind right now?
David Cupolo
So teachers come back on Thursday, you know, and again, I'm like that teacher the first night, night before the first day of school. You have those jitters, but you're excited. You know, I'm excited to see what the year can bring. At my school grades five, six. So we'll have a new group of fifth grade students coming in, you know, and get to know those students and seeing what impact we can have on them.
You know, setting that foundation and framework for I go back to the student is the most important part of this building. Without them, we would not be here. You know, and this year we're kind of kicking off and be the one, be the one, you know, and how can you be the one? I entered the school year with, you know, saying, I'm going to reflect on how can I be the person I want to work with? And then this year, so now it's kind of tying it up that we're coming back.
How can I be the one I want to work with and be the one for those students? So I'm kind of wrapping my head around those thoughts and gear up. Yeah. So is a pretty typical every year you're coming in with like a new theme and a new direction that you really want to build in throughout the culture? So, yeah, I think yes and no. I always try to tie in on what we've always done, you know, and we always revisit the vision. We always...
revisit our beliefs, you know, and going back to this is what we believe and that is it, that we can be the one for those students and all students, when I say all, A, capital L, capital L, even the kid from that neighborhood is Ken Williams to say, you know, they deserve the best and, you know, they know that and I'm an amazing staff that go in every day and give it all for those kids. But, you know, just kind of tying it all together as we keep going along and just improving.
Kevin Stoller
Right. So talk more about kind of how you got this interest and at what point did you recognize how much the learning environment was really impacting the work that you do with that idea of like school is there for the kids?
David Cupolo
Yeah. So, you know, as I moved into my career, one of my dreams was I realized I wanted to open up a new school. And, you know, that'd be a cool thing to do and actually only had was in my second year in this Horry County. I'd been a principal in North Carolina and I figured, you know, it might not come along because only been at this school I was at short period. And, you know, they selected me to open up this school which is a different design model. There was only a few others in the state but it was a state of the art facility and, you know, it's net zero net positive energy in.
It looks like a mall, literally glass walls on the inside, collaboration spaces. But there was no schools like it. You know, we visited some different models to see what it was like. And every time you go to school, you know, I want to talk to the kids. I can do the tour with the adults, you know, and I can see. And one student, I can remember the school said, said, so how does this work with the glass and everything? You know, I'm an ADHD adult. How does it work? And I said, they said, it's like the zoo effect. I said, what's that?
They said, I see you, you see me, I'm gonna do my thing. I'm like an animal in the zoo, you're watching me and I'm in my element. I said, that is awesome. I said, okay, this will work. So, but I remember, and we entered the school, we got the keys and a Friday night teachers were coming back that Monday morning and my whole staff had never ever come together. And so we hadn't even been in the building. But I remember visiting while it was dirt. I bought a hard hat, scraped up a vest and a clipboard. And I went in like I was part of the construction crew just to see, you know, this process.
And finally I figured out who I was from meetings. But, know, trying to envision what this could be for kids and what environment we could create. Because you can have beautiful buildings and be an ugly culture, right? You know, so what can we really create for kids? And every parent meeting, I would start off with schools are built for kids. You know, this is their place. This is not our place. We serve them, so it was great. And coming into the building and really trying the collaboration spaces. So our first day back with teachers, I had my people spread out in the building doing different small PD sessions to see the acoustics, to see how it worked. And with teachers, I said, you can use the collaboration spaces. I didn't say there were rules to it. But I did say is let's let kids rise to the challenge.
Kevin Stoller (09:40.014)
For sure. So I just want to set the stage a little bit. So that school opened about eight years ago. So 2016 definitely because so many people that are listeners of the show are involved with the design of schools. And that was definitely on the earlier side because what you're describing is pretty much the... I don't want to say the standard. Hopefully it's at least more closely aligned with that versus the traditional model that doesn't allow that flexibility and that collaboration. So you guys are going in. How involved were you in the process or was that coming from the district level? Who was really driving that vision of saying, we're going to build this new school. Have this opportunity of a lifetime. What was that like for you?
David Cupolo
So I came on the back end and it was more of the, know, decision-making. And I really think that net positive really was a big key for the school board, you know, and the design and the potential. So I don't know the conversations that we had about what pedagogy, you know, what we could do with in the classroom. I did help pick out desks and make sure the sizes were right for what we needed and chairs. But as far as, you know, how do you use it? It wasn't there, you know, it really wasn't. And that was my experience. So kind of fumbled through it with our staff, but more or less talking to kids and seeing how teachers were using it and kids. And I remember, I remember the first teacher that sent kids out to work in the collaboration space. like, wow, how's it going?
She goes, I don't know. go, well, let's see. And I fist bumped her, you know? And then the glass, I said, it's writable. I didn't say you had to use it. I didn't say you couldn't. Said it's writable.
You know, teachers started really using it, that's the fourth, you know, the fourth teacher, second, third teacher in the room using that students love working out those problems on the glass or, you know, anchor charts on the glass. And it was just kind of working with teachers and seeing how students should respond and then conversations with students. You know, I wish I had more on the front end I could speak to. I think now I offer a whole lot more to be able to say, hey, this is this is how we evolve.
Kevin Stoller (12:04.802)
Well, that's why I wanted you to go through it because that's very typical in this industry, very typical in that there was a decision made at the district level or someone on the board or somebody said, hey, we're going to go this direction. But they're not always pulling in kind of the site leaders and teacher students perspective as they're doing that. Now, as an industry, we're getting better at doing that earlier on. But your experience is like very typical where you're almost like handed a building and now saying, go figure out how to use it.
David Cupolo
Yeah, Friday night at 7:20. got the key. Teachers show up on Monday. Yeah, here you go. Yeah. So, so you definitely embraced it hearing like that. And you know, you had teachers that do, were there ones that that fought it or, or saying like, man, I just wish I had my old space back. You know, there were some, there was a couple.
And they may have realized it wasn't necessarily their fit. But I remember one teacher who is interesting because she, this school's meant for older students and not these students. And I'm like, but look, they're doing it over there. And finally, it took a little while and she embraced it. And she actually retired, but said, thank you for giving me, my last two years was so enjoyable with my kids because of the, what we have here and what we're able to do and the way the building is being used in those spaces. So that was pretty cool.
Testament for her who was, you know, it was, it was a shift. Yeah. Yeah. Which I don't blame anyone changes hard. mean, if you've been doing something for a long time, one way, and then have to shift that quickly to a different way, that that's a tough change. It really was, it really was. And, know, and I'm a, I'm a research person. I'm a research geek.
I've known John had his visible learning work for years and those in education. If you don't know him, you better know him because what he writes about and the research he has people do, it's what works in schools. So that was part of that other foundation was, know, teachers necessarily don't want to know about the research right away, but kind of bringing it in and introducing them, okay, well, here's what the research says about student discussion and the impact. And here's cooperative learning. And here's how we can use the furniture and how to tweak it and better practice and tighten it up. you know, and trying to take that learning to another deeper level.
Kevin Stoller (14:24.268)
Do you mind talking through a little bit of Hattie's research? It is important for us to understand the research band because a lot of us who are supporting it, who may not come from education background, whether it's on the architecture side or on the industry supporting education, the more educated we could be, the better.
David Cupolo
Right. And I think one of my, some of my favorite conversations are people in the industry and architecture in outfitters because of that, you know. And so his, again, that research out there shows what's effective, you know, homework has little impact on student growth and academic success. Class size.
You know, we learned during COVID, might be different if you have hybrid, but you had to do some other things well for it to be impactful, right? You know, and that's the piece. have to just, you have to learn the strategies and the research behind it. But yeah, so Hay and Greg Donahue proposed a conceptual learning model, skill, thrill, which was a synthesis of that research and visible learning of what worked. And oftentimes, surface deeper transfer, right? And we're often, we know in classrooms there's surface level learning and kids aren't engaged and we sit in rows, you know, and there's that boredom piece that I found, you know, and Cornwell in 2000, it was only two years ago, the art of only two years ago and how boredom has led to what a third of high school dropouts to half, you know, that's an issue, that's a crisis, you know, and that's something we can fix and that's where design and use.
Just because you put the kit desk together doesn't mean they're going to collaborate, right? You know, you got to use it effectively, but that's that research. So I want to study what learning thrill was, you know, it seemed like it just rhymed with skill and will. And, you know, it was perfect. So nobody had studied it. So I kind of talked to South Carolina structural leaders and how do you perceive and conceptualize it? Then what does it look like? What does it sound like in the classroom? Take me to those places and describe it.
And they described these deep, engaging experiences for kids. They were collaborating. were experiencing almost student agency. They were driving their learning. The teachers were just fostering that real environment for those students. But again, inductive learning, project-based learning, and thinking about how we design and materials and use of materials and how. Because teachers, it's about time, right?
Adam and Eve's teacher said, I don't have enough time to plan for them. It's just the way it is in education. We know that. So what can we do to help those teachers design rooms and make smoother transitions and furniture that's flexible so I can just easily maneuver it so I can do this over here. But then those learning spaces for students, what are they comfortable? Where are they more comfortable in taking their learning to a deeper level and really getting that thrill experience, you know?
Kevin Stoller
Yeah. Do you mind giving some examples of like where, because the space, how much that changes, like those concrete examples, I think are the stories are always good for people to hear to be like, hey, this is a kid that maybe 10 years, you know, in your first 10 years of being a principal may have had a different experience versus now what they have in that flexible learning environment that they're in now.
David Cupolo
Sure. Yeah, I remember when we all think and it was a few weeks into the school year. And this is this really hit me this this moment. So under the stairs of cement blocks in my school and this is sprinkler system. And there's a student like to work under there. But one day he's kind of just pulling on hanging on the pole. Nothing can do. What are you doing? He goes, What do mean? I said, You're pulling on the fire thing. It's sprinkler system. I go, Do you know what happens if that breaks? And he goes, No.
I go, neither do I, but I have a feeling it has a lot of water, a big bill and fire trucks. I go, go to your room. He goes, do I have to? And I was like, my, I sound like a parent. I'm like, tell you what, go for 50 seconds, just come back. Please don't do that again. We good? He's good. I said, we fist bumped. But then I started like, wow, I need to pay more attention to this, you know, and those students. And soon as I tell you, this is my space that I feel more comfortable on the floor in the corner on that pillow. Or, you know, our media center is open space and there's different furniture. And, you know, you struggle with custodian on whose furniture it was. Well, they're putting their feet on it. I go, it's theirs. Like, you know, that's their space. This is where they're comfortable learning. And it was transferring. Those teachers are like, wow. And they rose to those occasions, you know.
I've seen students who come to that school with behavioral records. And part of that culture is that this is your place, this is your space, and it's a safe space. And it's interesting, I was having a conversation last Friday with one of my teachers, last Thursday. She talked about the desk, how each kid doesn't own that desk. Remember how we had our desk and you had your name on it? Yeah, for sure. It's not my desk, it's our area.
And I can go work with other kids in another area and students who might not sit in that row traditionally can work together with other students in that respect and that safe place and that safe space that they need. You know, and allowing them that opportunity. And I think that's the other key, you know, is that setup that we've seen from non-traditional rows to collaboration and even with the technology of sharing through Google Chromebooks and Google Docs and things of that nature. Yeah. So can you expand on that more as a principal who has gone through that process and now to a principal who may be getting ready to open a new school or a totally different space and their staff is coming back right now or they're in the process and it's going to be in the next six to 12 months?
What are those lesson learns? would be that advice that you would give to them? Because they're going to have the same things. They're going to have the teachers that are going to be like, well, what do mean the student doesn't know the space? What do you mean that, you know, like I'm not upfront and, you know, and things aren't sitting in straight rows. What are those things that you would share with others? You know, I start with the why. That's when we opened the school, I got a book for the staff to go back to our why.
And, you know, and we had our individual, why are you teaching? Because I knew teachers were gonna struggle. knew just because you got the keys doesn't mean it's complete, right? Let's be honest, there's still gonna be work being done. And those can interfere and things out the air conditioning, right? It's just gonna get adjusted. And those are things that matter to teachers, you know, and all the pressure on teachers now. So really looking at the why and the student and then what can you do for the student? because everybody in education to help kids to work with kids and help kids be successful. I think that's the first piece is trying to build that collective vision. I started with the collective teacher efficacy has the biggest research effect size on student achievement, 1.36.
And coming together really looking at involving teachers in that process. then setting up some structures, you gotta have some structures, but don't be completely tied to them because you're going to get to know the environment and allow teachers to mess up, allow kids to mess up.
Kevin Stoller
Yeah, which we all know is the best way to learn, but we struggle. want to step in. Well, that's good. mean, are there, as somebody who values research and is constantly looking at that, what research do you wish would be done at this point? What would be really helpful for you, or what are the questions that you would wanna try to answer?
David Cupolo
You know, I talk to kids a lot and you know, it's one of the tough parts for researchers is doing research, talking to students, right? Because that's that big, you know, there's always those epic things in there and you know, I started with the check-in system with the company in Australia, Versha Learning. And one of the things I wanna know is what are you learning today? Ask kids, what are they learning? Yeah, you your kid at home, what'd you learn today? Nothing.
Or this, well, I know what you did, you know, but what are you really learning? And I found that, you know, students couldn't really articulate. And then teachers like, well, you talked to so-and-so, of course they couldn't tell you. Well, I don't know that that was the answer, you know. So we started looking at that. And one of the things we found is students were bored, but they also weren't clear about what their learning was. But they also wanted discussion. They wanted to talk to their parents and they wanted to collaborate.
You know, they were telling us what they wanted through that check-in. John Hattie actually, it's a quote that says on their site, it's the best classroom data I've ever seen. You know, and really I would love to learn more about students, what leads to thrill for them and how they experience that learning because it's not often. You know, go to watch schools when it gets out of high school practice, right?
Kids are practicing skills, they're acquiring skills, they're consolidating it, they're adding, they're learning, they're dispositions, persevering, and then there's that thrill. And we see in band when they get to perform in chorus, and very rarely do we get to see in those academic classrooms, but it can't exist, and that's what I've kind of studied. But I wanna know more from students of what can we do to help you, what can the environment do to help you? What do you need more of? We kind of know some of it, like I said, from that check-in. And it was, we want to be able to have more discussion. We want to be able to ask more questions. We want to be able to explore. We want to be able to collaborate. So those things, I would love to delve more into that research and study the environment they're in.
Kevin Stoller
Yeah. What does your gut tell you if you're going to have a hypothesis on that of saying, you know what I think this would work or this would be a benefit?
David Cupolo
I think those flexible environments and collaborative spaces where students feel safe and they feel valued and they have agency and when you give them opportunities for curiosity and connections to each other, I think that they're gonna say, that's what I want, that's what I need. And that's the world of today, honestly.
Unfortunately, as you see the research, you go through school and by the time you become a senior, you're very little engaged and it's scary. I know. And you can be like, we can all be engaged in something and it can be low level too, right? I've been engaged, but that's really tasks. I'm just completing a task. I'm not really into it, part of it's a curricular issue on the educator side. That's part of that stack curriculum. We got those tests and all of those things, and I'm not saying there's not some value there. But our learning is not going deep enough and we need to be able to transfer that learning.
Kevin Stoller (26:24.782)
I think you're right. I mean, my experience would be the same that if I was going to say like, maybe there's not perfect research that shows it this way, but my gut and from what I've seen from being around this enough and just knowing kids and watching it, is.
Right, they do. They want the agency. They want to be able to collaborate. They want to work with their peers. They want to have meaningful projects. that, yeah, and that for me is always the hard part because I'm the one that wants to challenge the status quo and be like, well, if you know that, why don't we start doing that? Like, what's preventing us from doing that? And I get it. There are a lot of limitations of what we can do without having the data and without having, you know, like the laws and all the legal and all the things that are coming down from state level and district level. But my gut is with you on that too, is that if we actually listen to the kids, they know what they want.
David Cupolo
Yeah. they do. They do. And I was glad I had a professor said study thrill, nobody studied it, because that's tough to do a dissertation when there's no prior research you know, on that one topic. But I was, I really knew I was onto something there. So, you know, developing a framework for instructional leaders and how to, how can we work with teachers to increase learning thrill, you know, that's kind of still tweaking it. Because I believe it can be done even in the status quo, but we do have to push those understandings, you know, and trust kids.
Cause they don't respond right. You know, and they're to mess up. We all did. Yeah. And that's probably the best thing for him is to mess up. Right. I sat in the principal's office a couple of times in my life. It's nothing wrong with that.
Kevin Stoller (28:46.284)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so are you, so as far as like studying thrill, like, and do, so are you actively engaged in that? Like what? Cause I talk through like what your journey has been around this concept of thrill and education.
David Cupolo
So right now, know, finalizing my dissertation and kind of working with, again, virtual learning. Phil Stubbs is my thought partner. Shout out to Phil. He's with Virtual Learning. He's a brilliant mind, and kind of really fine tuning a framework for instructional leaders to kind of look at those things. Inductive learning. So what does the environment look like? Teacher authority. They've got to... to clarify Ed, that they're really tweaking right now that's coming out. And it's been a great journey that'll give teachers back time and make things more clear for students, but also look at a learning progression. So it's kind of like expert to Jedi, you know? So students can see this is where I need to head with my learning. And if I want to be a thrill and I want to be a transfer, this is where it's at. But then how could...
giving them the opportunity to say, is how I can show and meet success criteria. Instead of just answering questions on a test, show me how you can, this is the level, show me that you were at that level. And that was a neat piece. When kids could articulate with three points of what they were learning and where they were going, then they had 68 % more positive emotions responses, just in that one factor.
So I worked with my staff on that and we found, wow, the boredom, you when you look those wordles, bored got smaller and smaller and smaller and excited and enthusiastic, you know, and anxious reduced, you know, there wasn't that cognitive overload that kids feel. So there's a lot there that we're, you know, working on writing and getting out there, trying to share that message and do some presentations and
All those things.
Kevin Stoller
Yeah, very cool. Yeah. Well, that people need to hear it. Yeah. People need to be able to do that. So yeah, thank you for doing that work. I want to hear it before we wrap up here. I want to hear. The eight year journey into the new facility, what, what are the things that you have changed or like if you did it over again, you wish you, it would, the building would be different or the learning environment be different for those people who are going through it right now because that's obviously one of the big benefits of of education is we're so willing to share and help people so that the next project is always better for the first for the kids and the teachers in the future.
David Cupolo
So, you know, for me, it was interesting right now the struggle is furniture. So we have these, you know, funky shaped collaboration tables for kids can sit at and I've grouped teachers that would prefer those in their classroom than the desks that connect together, just basically the four desks that have cool little shapes that connect together. They want these tables. And I'm just, they say it's more functional, more space in my room to maneuver. It's still not their desk. It's our table in that mindset. That's something to look at, you know, because they really believe it's helped their classroom.
And I think just kind of look into the spaces and how do you use them and what structure do you provide kids for? It's for this use, know, using it understood that it's for learning, that it's not just, you know, hanging out. And kids did a great job with that, but that's just a little suggestion, you know, keep in mind, and this is our space for this and really having to understand this is where you apply yourself. This is where, you know, your collaborative place.
This is for your discussion. You know, because we didn't have that, you know, campfires was not a word when I came out, you know, we did cooperative learning structures. I think that's a great training to have Cagan cooperative learning structures because it really tightens up how to, so kids can't hide in those environments still, because that's another piece we don't want to, we don't, and I don't mean physically hide, but I do, you know, educationally hide. I was good at that.
I could sit in the back right corner last seat if I could and just, you know, kind of do my thing and then do what I needed to do, get out of class. But I think, you know, my best advice, have a plan, have a vision, have a group of people, your people who you believe will be the key people to really move that transition and look at the space. And I would love to visit schools and say, hey, this is your space. This is how it worked for us. This is how it didn't. This the space that was designed in the school that we don't use that I wish was something else, right? And that's the architecture side. When I was going through my Ed specialist degree, because I didn't understand how architects design schools. So part of my internship hours were with the architecture, because I want to know why did you do that? Why did you put this there? Then, know, look, those transitions, that's going to be an issue right here. Student transitions, that's, you you need to think about that because this crossway, cross paths, that's something else I would say, and look at your schedule and look at where kids are maneuvering based on the design.
We have, criss cross applesauce traffic, you know, and it can be kids and kids, you know, we don't necessarily want to apply it, but we just want, you know, get where you need to be hugging, go hug and go, hug and go, especially after COVID.
Kevin Stoller
Yeah. Yep. For sure. Yep. Yeah. And whether it is that way finding or something on the floors to help guide that traffic flow. Cool. Well, thanks for doing that. Thanks for sharing that. Anything else that I should be asking you that I haven't asked you about that you think would be useful for our audience?
David Cupolo
You know, I just think having educators and principals at the table, I don't know the conversation that had. It seems like it's getting better, but understanding pedagogy, understand research. I've presented in a couple of AFRL conferences and, you know, I enjoy it and was, you know, sharing the research and the pedagogy to understand this is how it's used in the classroom. This is how the teacher will use it. And this is why, and this is the research says this is effective. You know, I think that that knowledge would be beneficial. Okay. This is why we want students to discuss. This is why we want cooperative learning. This is the impact it has. You know, and one of the activities I do is I put up some of the effects, things that impact learning can be have a strong effect or very little. And it's always interesting that items that come up like homework, that very little impact, but we all hop on our kids about it. Like you got to tell them it really doesn't have impact, you know, unless it's really taking learn further, you know?
The things that are like, we've heard this research for so long and we know it, but man, I can tell you from like the parent experience, our schools are not learning that they keep sending the homework home and it's still like that nightly battle of, then I'm sitting here knowing this research that the homework really doesn't matter. I live it. Yeah. Yeah. I live into my house, you know, and now we know more about digitalized content and personalized learning, which is better. I think research will help tweak that homework. In fact, says a little bit more.
you know, because it's more meaningful to students if it's used the right way. They understand this is where you fill in your gap and this is how it's going to benefit you. But yeah, no, that's frustrating to know. We know the right stuff and we still struggle getting it in place. Yeah. Well, I just heard a story of Chick-fil-A how, and seems like recently they've dropped this, at least once by us, but they used to have, you knew if you went to a Chick-fil-A,
And they would say, may I serve you today? And you knew that was the way. And they ask them, how long did it take to get that idea, that simple line of having everyone ask about that? my pleasure. I think it was the end of it was when they say, pleasure. Instead of saying thank you or yeah, they'll say, my pleasure. How long did it take to get everyone in the organization to do that? Guess how long they said it took them?
Six years. Six years to get like everyone to just say that one my pleasure, like just to answer like, that my pleasure. And it's a reminder of like how long it takes to get even simple changes all the way through a system. And yeah, to so to do it, we may know the research, but man, it takes a little time, unfortunately, as much as we want to try to have that urgency to say like, Hey, this kid only goes through school one time. Let's try to it right for them.
Kevin Stoller (38:12.632)
Well, that's, know, and for me, it's gentle constant pressure because compliance, you know, I'm one of those, the status quo doesn't always work for me.
David Cupolo
And, but that gentle constant pressure of what works, you know, hey, try this, try this, you know, it takes hold, but it takes time. You got to have that patience to realize, you know, and organizations go through those challenges, you know, and you kind of peak excitement and then dip down and then, all right, let's get back on track again, you know, but it does it. didn't think six years though. been my pleasure. That's a long time. Two words. right.
Kevin Stoller
Perfect. For the listeners, wherever you listen, just hit subscribe. We appreciate it. We also appreciate all of the feedback and the recommendations on either guests or topics. The hub for everything is betterlearningpodcast.com and on there we'll have show notes. We'll have links to David's information and he shared with an article. We'll link to the article too that he wrote here. So if you want any more information around this topic. But David, really appreciate the time. It great speaking with you.
Kevin Stoller (39:49.336)
Views and opinions expressed on the Better Learning Podcast are those of myself as an individual and my guests and do not necessarily represent the organizations that we work for, the Association for Learning Environments, K-12, Education Leaders Organization, or Second Class Foundation.
