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 [00:00:00] It’s another episode of The Better Learning Podcast. We’re talking the movie Wall E today, which I, I’ll admit right off the bat here, this was the first time I’ve watched it all the way through, so it, it was, it was a good one.

Kevin: And I’m joined with my co-host Carla Cummins. How’s it going? Carla,

Carla: Fabulous as always.

Kevin: have you, had you seen this movie before?

Carla: I don’t know if we should talk about me seeing this movie before. ’cause I debated on if we should have this conversation. Yes, I have.

Kevin: ha. Have you seen it yet?

Carla: Yes. I mean, I’ve seen it like it was actually my son’s favorite movie when, so, uh, my 20-year-old son’s favorite movie when he was a kid. it was not mine. I’ll just say

Kevin: Yeah. All right. Okay. All right. Well,

Carla: dialogue, but I, I mean, I was intrigued.

I’m glad I re-watched it. I, I gained a new appreciation for it as I’ve gotten older, I guess.

Kevin: awesome. Well, we, we have two guests with us today. So we have Ron Lamar and Megan Brown. Ron, how’s it going?

Ron: Good. Good. How are you?

Kevin: Good. And Megan, good to see you.

Megan: Excellent. Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Kevin: Yeah. So, so you’re both East Coast Boston. I, I, I, I guess I want to hear what’s the, what was the thought behind this movie and why, why this was the one that you guys decided we should talk about?

Ron: okay, so we were thinking, um, how do we marry sustainability? Um, and everything that we’re talking about in today’s world of restoration of the earth and global responsibility, and we’re talking about those same things in education, right? How do we really get a global response to education? How do we raise the bar in education?

And so Wally just kind of rose to the top for us when we were brainstorming about this as one thing that kind of hits both those components.

Kevin: Which is amazing. I mean, hearing that explanation, I’m like, okay, yeah, that is, this is one of those movies that, um, I watch. I’m like, oh no, this is gonna be really depressing. Um, because it, it really starts out pretty depressing. Uh, I mean, Megan, from your, your perspective, like what were the reasons, what’s, what’s the connection with this movie for you?

Megan: Yeah, it’s so easy, like you said, to, to get into that doom and gloom mindset. The, we can’t change anything, you know, mentality. It’s all happened, like we’re, it’s too late, I guess. Um, I mean, we like to come at it from a much more positive angle, um, in all the work that we do, that we can make a difference in, in climate change, in regenerative building, sustainability, all of those things.

so in that regard, you know, we’re not, we’re not proposing this from, you know, a, a, uh, a negative viewpoint by any means. but yeah, always trying to have a different mindset.

Kevin: All right. So Carla, tell me what, like, you, you got, uh, you had some strong feelings on this movie. What, what’s up?

Carla: Like it, there’s no dialogue in the very beginning. All that you have is just Wally, like puttering around over there. And is cockroach like.

Kevin: You didn’t, you didn’t get a connection, I

Carla: No, no, no. When it first came out, I remember my ex-husband and I left the movie theater and I was like, that was the worst movie. I think I’ve seen a very long time from Pixar. Right? And, and then my son fell in love with it. And we obviously it was on, I mean, it was on every day, all day, right? When, when your kids are little.

And I didn’t, it’s always still been the thing. So when I saw Wally, I was like, golly, of course Ron would choose Wally of all the movies. why? But I mean, my opinion did change as I watched it. I mean, definitely like I can see the connection that you guys are talking about. I also too was like, how does this connect back to education?

Um, but I got the human elements and the relationship elements from it and those types of things. So like I said, not, not like my favorite thing, but I’m glad that I did rewatch it. ’cause I was like, I am not rewatching this, this is crazy. But I did so, but that was why it was not, not a big deal.

Kevin: I, I don’t know why this one just never really hit my radar like I knew of it, but I, and because it came out about, so it came out in 2008, about the same time as like the movie cars. And my son was like, obsessed with that movie cars. But this one, I, I don’t even know. I should, I should have asked him. I don’t know if he’d seen this one either, but

Carla: didn’t watch it with your kids.

Kevin: no, I don’t know why I’m, I’m not sure why this one

Carla: I mean, today, like this week, when did you watch it for prep? Prepping for this episode. Did you watch it?

Kevin: no, I watched it like a week ago. so I did watch it with, with kind of kids coming in, going

Carla: Oh, okay. I mean,

Kevin: But, but all right. I was super surprised though IMDB rating out 10. What, what are your guesses of what this got [00:05:00] out?

Carla: I think it was a high rating. Yeah.

Kevin: It

Ron: I’m gonna go with 10.

Kevin: Oh, so you would go 10. Megan, what?

Megan: We will say eight or nine maybe.

Kevin: See, IMDB is like really, really tough. Like you, we always say like if it’s over a seven, it’s usually like a pretty good movie.

It’s usually worth watching and it’s really hard to get over an eight. This one was an 8.4. Like this is like one of the top rated movies of like all time

Ron: Won an Academy Award.

Carla: It was super talked about, Kevin. I don’t know how, especially knowing like Grant, that would be Grant, right? Like how old he was that you didn’t see it, but I know it was really popular. Oh yeah. No, then probably not. I, yeah, one year old’s not gonna enjoy that.

Megan: kind of doing some reading behind the scenes about the movie. I was intrigued to learn now that, you know, they did some pretty progressive things about lighting and the different scenes stuff that had never been done before, which I thought was really interesting. So it was groundbreaking in that regard.

Kevin: And I feel like it’s super relevant to today because I feel like you a lot, I mean, especially AI kind of prompts a lot of these conversations right now of like,

Ron: Yep.

Kevin: what’s gonna happen to humans. Like our Yeah. Is AI gonna be smarter than humans? And basically replace, replace us. Um, yeah. That, that was pretty fascinating to see, like how, and part of it, it’s, you know, with the animation, you know, it, it feels like it could have came out year.

Ron: Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah. So, Ron, why, why a 10? So you, you really like this movie,

Ron: So, well, I did, because the first time I watched it, you know, you kind of, as Carla and Megan said, you kind of start off with the what happened to the earth. And, you know, the first thing is okay. And, uh, of course the expectation of in my mind is, all right, this is what we’ve done to the earth. Now, how’s Pixar gonna fix it?

Like, how are they gonna make it all right? You know? and I think the progression through the movie really touched on a lot of things that we were talking about in education. Like, how much does technology have to do with the future, you know? And it turned out like, oh my gosh, like, technology’s running the future.

there’s only one remaining robot on earth, but you know, everybody’s living in space and they’re all living like in this time machine. not a real, you know what I mean? But it’s just like, you know, I think it’s 28 0 5 is the setting for the movie. and it just, it resonated with me to that point of, okay, you know, how do we get from where we are today and avoid what’s being projected right now.

Carla: Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah,

Megan: Something that really stuck out to me in the movie too, was the idea of this one little plant and that, that is a trigger, like a tipping point for so many events and changing of perspectives and changing of mindsets in the movie. Um, I thought that, you know, obviously the plant is important in the movie, but I thought it was really interesting from a, a broader perspective of like a tipping point and what really starts to, to change the mindset of the people on the axiom about earth.

Kevin: yeah. Yeah. Nice. Well, any, any other, uh, general thoughts on the movie before we dig into some award categories here?

Ron: Oh yeah, we’ve got, so, you know, one of the things that we wanted to point out was, and how it relates to education, um, in terms of, like Wally, you know, he has his directive, right? His directive is to clean the earth, but at the same time he’s like collecting all these artifacts and he’s learning how to dance.

He’s really becoming this human character where all of a sudden he does have a pet, even though it’s a cockroach. But, you know, those are the only things that are still living. Um, you know, and he really learns empathy. And so you kind of look at that and you say, so is ai, is it really capable of learning, like, at that level?

Um, and then the fact that the, you know, the earth doesn’t support life anymore except for cockroaches and robots, you know, I think that was kind of striking. and are we gonna get, we gonna get into the education of it later? Like, did the awards come first?

Kevin: Uh, I mean, we’ll, we’ll hit a few though. Go let’s go to the awards, and if we don’t hit ’em in there, then we’ll then we’ll pull back more in the education side of it, but, all right. So the, so the first category that we, that we always talk about, it’s, uh, it’s looking at, we call it the John Keating Award of who is the best educator in this.

So this is a different type of movie. Most of the ones we’ve been doing have some more, like, more like purely school related components to it. Um, what do you guys have here?

Carla: You gotta

Megan: Yeah, obviously there’s not, there aren’t a lot of characters in the movie in general. Right. Um, but I think, yeah, absolutely. It has to be Wally, right? He’s the one who is trying to almost [00:10:00] educate Eva too, the little, the white robot. He’s kind of like educating her almost on what, what earth is like almost in a way, right?

’cause he has these humanistic traits. He’s like trying to share things with her, show her his like house. It’s very interesting.

Do

Kevin: Did anyone have any, anyone other than Wally? ’cause I was trying to think through, I’m like, I don’t, I don’t know, like the, like we always joke around in some of these movies, like they do not portray adults as, as good influences on kids. A lot of the movies that we’ve done on the series, um, and this, yeah, I mean there, it, it, it was tough because they were, other than Wali, like he was really the one that really drove, drove all of it.

I don’t know. Did Ron or Carla, do you guys have anything different?

Ron: Well, I think you know the captain too, right? He makes a decision and he makes a unilateral decision. One person decides we’re going back, and he makes a decision to override, you know, Axiom. And, you know, he makes a decision that once he learns the truth, which is being hidden from everybody, um, that he is gonna act on that truth.

And I think that from an educational point of view, you know, or as an educator, that’s one of the biggest lessons that kids can learn, right? That, you know, how do you find the truth? Like critical thinking, things like that. You know, how do you make the best decisions? Um, and I think so yeah, Wally is doing all the fun stuff.

Um, you know, but it’s really the captain who makes that decision.

Kevin: Yeah. I, I’m gonna, I’m gonna skip through a few other, the ones here, and I, and I’m gonna, I’m gonna spend some time on this realistic or ridiculous component. ’cause I feel like this is probably really more of like the heart of the movie, of the discussion. What, what in this, what was, what was the most ridiculous thing?

And then, and then we can talk after that on the other side of like, what, what’s the more realistic side?

Megan: It is a funny question because if you think it is set 800 years from now, it’s like, well, what is unrealistic in a way of, you know, living on a spaceship with the earth, um, off the earth? Who knows? But, I mean obviously the realistic side is the fact that we are killing our planet and we’re, um, not doing a great job of it currently.

We’re not doing a great job of caring for it. Um, but Ron actually had a, um, a thought to, again, tie it back to, to kids. I dunno if you wanna talk about it, Ron, of, but the, the way by and large is portrayed.

Ron: Yeah. So the, the realism there is right, everything is kind of like by and large. So if you’re a person living on Axiom, you don’t even walk, right? You ride around on these little floating lounge chairs. You have your big by and large cup that you sit from. you have a screen in front of you so you don’t interact with anybody.

And you know, I think that that whole concept is so true. How attention span is zilch. You’re not looking around anymore to see all the people around you. You’re just focused on your screen. You know what I mean? Um, and this is today’s world that I’m talking about. And you know, if you take a look at that, who’s actually running Axiom, which would basically mean who’s running civilization.

And it’s by and large ’cause the computers are all. Um, you know, they’re all programmed and built by, by and large. And so, you know, if you take a look at that in terms of, today’s world in terms of realistic, I think that’s where we are already located. You know, that’s where we, we are standing in the world that we are at today.

People are no longer thinking about people next to them. They’re no longer thinking about their peers. They’re really just focused on this screen time and engaging with people on the screen instead of engaging with the people next to you.

Carla: So my real or realistic, I wrote Comfort is the enemy of curiosity. And you see that in the whole by and large thing. And, and I think that I, I connected a lot of the stuff back to like real world too. Um, you know, these people, they couldn’t walk, I don’t think, could they?

Ron: Right. Right. They can’t even stand up,

Carla: And I, and I wanna say like, girl, one of the early scenes, the captain is like, it’s our 75th anniversary of our five year career or something.

So what was the math on that? Right? And I thought, huh, well, they have been up there for a really, really long time. So I would imagine that

Ron: Mm-hmm.

Carla: they, they have built a system, uh, for doing too much for people that got complacent, right? And so I do think that there’s, there’s real aspects of it that are reality.

And the screen is, I just had a conversation this morning about it, you know, the way that we connect with people. It’s, it gets more and more difficult the more we’re behind a phone, behind a screen behind all of [00:15:00] that stuff. So I, I think there’s, there are obviously some realistic components to it, but Megan, did you answer the real realistic part?

Megan: Um, a little bit, but I totally agree with what you were saying, Carla. I think it’s interesting to think about how, um, AI can also Tory us in a way of trying to get to the bottom of questions. Like, it’s an easy, it’s an easy button, right? Google was the same way. It got a bad rap, right? Everyone just googles an answer instead of thinking about it, talking about it with friends.

it can, keep us from pushing our curiosity further and discovering things in different ways. And just because it’s easy, right?

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean obviously there, there’s the satire component of this movie, but it is,

Megan: Yeah.

Kevin: I, I mean, you, you fast forward and, and it’s almost like star, you, you can see it not that far away. Um, so I, I think there’s two different points here for me in here is one is. It may have seemed ridiculous in 2008, but you literally, like, I don’t know how we can have this episode and not talk about Elon Musk, um, and all the work that he’s doing.

At the end of the day, what is the driving force for everything that he is doing is that he thinks that we need to be on multiple planets. Like the human race to survive has to be on multiple planets. That’s the driving be force behind like all of his initiatives. And it’s honestly like that’s what this movie’s about.

It’s where, how are human, if humans aren’t gonna survive on earth, where do they go? And um, yeah. So I I, I felt like that component was eerily realistic, that we actually have people thinking about this right now and like taking action for it. the other one which is a little more closer to home, to like our industry is that I do remember.

When the kind of this new wave of furniture for schools was coming out, and some of the types of furniture that had like the desk combined with it and would swivel around, which I personally love, like in the right situation there, like these pieces of furniture could be the right fit. But I remember a lot of the people like having a gut like visceral reaction of hating it because of this movie. Because they’re like, all we’re doing is we’re creating kids who are basically just gonna be like, like they are in this movie where they don’t even move around and they do that. And, um, yeah. So I, I’m definitely very glad to see like the industry evolving in the point where we’re talking more about active learning environments and, and more movement and utilizing spaces in a different level.

So tho those are kind of my ridiculous but realistic kind of points combined in there. do we miss anything?

Carla: we actually established Elon Musk probably watch Wally as a kid, and so therefore he found all of his initiative. I’m joking. It’s funny though, that’s the thing, because I guess I, I wouldn’t have connected it back to that Kevin, but, yeah, I don’t think that there’s, there’s much of a miss on that one.

Kevin: Other than what, I mean how many years ahead was, was this supposed, did they ever say like, other than, yeah.

Ron: 0 5. 

Carla: not far,

Ron: Yeah.

Carla: but not close either.

Kevin: Right. I mean,

Ron: no, not that close. Um, you know, but it does, I, I think everything that everybody has said is true. Right? How do you, and that’s what we’re here talking about today, like, how do you really connect this to what’s going on today? and, you know, kudos to the, the director and everybody else who kind of put this together to, because, you know, I think they’re hitting on some real issues, frankly.

Um, but they’re doing it in a very fun way, you know, and I think, I think that was what I took away again, from the. From the film was, you know, leave it to Pixar to be talking about a real serious issue, which is what Megan, you know, crystallized there in her comment. And then how do we like get everybody’s attention and how do we get ’em to address it?

And I think, Carly, you’re right, I think Elon Musk did watch this and say, oh God, we gotta do something.

Carla: I was just being smart, but I think only Kevin would’ve connected it back right.

Kevin: Am I the only one? You guys didn’t think about this.

Carla: No, not, I didn’t think about Elon Musk at all. I just was like, gosh, how do I connect this back to education? Like, how, how exactly is it? But I think it’s a lot of kind of what we talk about too is, is that Wally, right?

He teaches us how our environment is a teacher, and how our environment affects us. And so it, it’s about cause and effect and, and everything else. And so, I mean, I think there’s some. Elements that we could bring it back. But definitely never ever, ever did I connect it back to, to Elon Musk. But I just don’t think that way either.

So I’m like, Hey, no, but I’m glad that you did ’cause it’s a good topic. And so I’ll send him a, I’ll send him a message and see

Kevin: [00:20:00] Yeah, let him know we can, we can get his take on this one. all right, so I’m, I’m gonna move into, into another category here. Um, there wasn’t a lot of dialogue in here, but was there a one-liner that stood out for you guys?

Ron: I don’t know. What did I have in here for thinking about one liners? You know, I think when you’re on, you’re getting the first tour of Axiom and the. You see a teacher teaching a class of kids, you know, and the only thing they have to learn is trust in by and large, like, that’s it, right? So all they have to do is trust by and large. And then, you know, I think that, so that was a, a one liner that that kind of stuck out, you know? And then the other one was just that, that term on directive, you know, where everybody seems to just have, or, you know, the technology way is that you, you put your blinders on and you just, you gotta do that, you know?

So Eva says it several times, you know, directive, directive, and, and he says it. He really doesn’t say it, actually. You know, it’s her who says Directive. Directive. And you kind of gotta get past the directive, right? And you. Attribute that to standardized tests. In other words, you know, just teach the test.

Don’t think about anything else. You gotta teach the test. and so that kind of stuck out to me from a, you know, again, rewatching it for this episode, you know, kind of latching onto that and saying there’s a lot of that goes on today.

Carla: Megan, how about you?

Megan: Um, yeah, I thought, I think I liked the, um, part where they get back on earth after they turn axiom around or whatever, come back and the captain is telling. The kids who have come with him, like, we’re gonna, we’re gonna learn to farm and grow our own food. It’s sort of this full circle moment, right, of where humanity probably started, right?

Like living off the earth, um, this regenerative farming idea, you know, it’s all, so it’s like this full circle moment of like, he’s like, we’re gonna learn to do this. And it’s almost like reteaching their civilization, I guess.

Carla: I clearly said there’s no dialogue in this one. So it was literally the biggest struggle for me. But I had directive, right? Like that’s, that’s a lot of it. And then too, I had like Wally Eve where there was that connection, that spark moment that. think that was the changing moment. Maybe I have that for homecoming scene anyways, but, I resonate with everything that Ron said is, is that I didn’t connect it back to state tech, you know, testing and that sort of thing, but I just directed it back to purpose driven, right. and sometimes our purpose is not our purpose. It’s what’s been taught to us. And I think that in this one, that directive was what had been taught in sort of just, drummed into people in a very, I don’t know, cult-like fashion, I guess maybe be,

Kevin: All right. Now I feel bad saying mine because you guys are, are clearly more sophisticated than I am. I, I just, I just really liked when, uh, when it was like the, the two humans out there and the one lady who was like, I didn’t know we had a pool.

Carla: Oh.

Kevin: That, that, that was my one liner that I thought was, was the funniest in there.

Carla: I mean, I, that one because it’s not like they would get in the pool though.

Kevin: But it, like, in my mind I’m just like, they’re on like the biggest cruise ship, like in the universe and they’re, it’s so big that they didn’t even realize like, yeah, there’s a pool there. Yeah,

Carla: Um, it’s funny though that I, I related the spaceship back to a cruise ship too,

Kevin: because it, it kind of

Ron: Oh yeah, definitely.

Kevin: yeah.

Ron: Absolutely.

Carla: I took, uh, by and large as Walmart.

Ron: You go.

Kevin: Yep.

Carla: I just, maybe there were some things there, but I just,

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, you already talked about or led into it, Carla, the homecoming scene was, was there, like, what was the big scene like the, like if you’re gonna say, this was like the momentous scene of the movie,

Carla: I think there were a couple, but when I go back, you know, it’s, it’s the captain turning the ship around, right? But I don’t even think it was that, I think it was that moment where, do they have hands? But I think Wally like reached out to Eve’s hand and like, you know, touched her. And that was like when the, there was a spark, right?

And there was something different and he had companionship. And so all of a sudden, like when she stopped working, it made him more curious about how do I fix her? How do I do it? And then he follows her to, to Axiom. So I think that it was that moment, but there’s others in there.

Kevin: Yeah. What do you think, Megan?

Megan: I agree. There were quite a few moments, like you could say, yeah, it’s like when they get the plant in and they turn the ship around or it’s when Wally is, I dunno, it’s regenerated I [00:25:00] guess, at the end, right after. Um, that was, and yeah, maybe that one for me was the, the main homecoming scene was, I guess at the end the, that spark again.

Right between him and Eva and I dunno, their. Human characteristics coming out, I suppose. Again,

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. Ron, you have one.

Ron: Yeah, I think it’s, it’s when the captain kind of stands up, right? ’cause they can’t walk and. It kind of gives you that little diagram during the movie where all their bones are separated because they’ve been in space for so long, you know, and he stands up and gets across the bridge, if you will. you know, and shuts the computer down. And now they’re back in control, and now they’re back in control of their own destiny. You know, they’re not working off the directives of the by and large computers. Um, so I think that was the, the big moment in the, if you want to call it a plot.

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 All right. I’m gonna skip through, I’m, I’m gonna do one more, unless you guys really wanna hit, but I felt like this movie, um, some of the other categories didn’t really apply as much, but, but I like this hags category. It’s the, the idea of like, you know, the kids in their yearbook will write hags of like, have a great summer.

Kevin: Like, if there’s gonna be like one, like lasting, like line or, you know, like, message from here, Could, could we sum it up in, in like one line that you would write in a yearbook?

Ron: One line

Kevin: Yes. I’m stumping. You

Ron: that you’re writing a yearbook have a great summer. I think you hit that right on the head. Um,

Kevin: see Earth?

Megan: great life on earth. Yeah.

Ron: so, you know, I, I do, I do think that one of the things that, you know, Megan was talking about was the root cause, you know, it’s like, or coming full circle, kind of think to yourself, is this really what needs to happen?

Like, do we really have to kill the planet to that point and then move off the planet with the, you know, the starship to actually realize that this is how we fix things? You know, and you ask that same question in education, right? Because even though we’re trying to change education, we’re not, you know, because people are still just learning the same thing.

They’re all in grades by ages. They’re all doing that same, they have their directive, right? So, you know, I do think that one liner in the yearbook would be, solve the problem from the root cause, you know, don’t try to, don’t try to just like, I don’t know, massage this or, or, you know, put paint on the statue, like, find the root cause and solve the problem.

Kevin: yeah, yeah.

Megan: I like that. I can’t add anything else to it. It’s good.

Kevin: Car Carly, you got anything?

Carla: yeah. So, um, so I am obviously more romantic than, uh, Ron is. So,

Kevin: Obviously right.

Ron: Obviously. Yeah. Obvious.

Carla: uh, was Wonder and Care can rebuild entire worlds.

Kevin: Hmm.

Ron: That’s a good one.

Megan: That’s

Carla: I mean,

Ron: Yeah.

Carla: that’s all.

Ron: you hated this movie.

Carla: Look, I told you I gained an appreciation for it. I, and, and I did. I honestly had to watch it twice. Well start watching it twice. ’cause initially I started watching it. I’m like, oh my God, I still hate this movie. And I turn it off, I can’t handle it. And then I said, no, I’m gonna, I’m gonna finish it.

And if you get past that part, you know, the very beginning part where he’s just sort of tooling around on his own and Eve disappears and she goes back up to, to Axios you, I mean, it, it gets a little bit better. Right. But I, I gained appreciation for it. I saw it. I saw you Ron and Megan. I’m with you. But I, I mean, I do think like. As we look at what we do, you know, we are, a society of, there’s a, there’s a lot of shopping, there’s a lot of, you know, things and stuff that we don’t need. And you saw it over and over again. We’re, we’re consumers in a sense. Um, and we consume a lot. And so when we look at the amount that we consume, what do we give back [00:30:00] to our environment?

And like, I mean like earthly environment, not necessarily physical space, yeah, I might start cycling more aggressively,

Kevin: Oh

Carla: but,

Kevin: I, I, I feel like this was a really interesting Yeah. Interesting choice of a movie. So I’m ju I’m, I’m glad you brought it up. I, I think it prompts kind of the bigger discussion, which maybe that’s what we should talk about this. So, like, Ron, you, you hit on it here of like, where I, I feel like. The change makers in education are like it, we’re, we’re just like talking on the fringes of like real change in a time when the rest of the world is changing really fast. so I, yeah, I mean I I, I’d love to hear kind your perspective and the type of work that you’re doing and things that you’re doing that, yeah.

That’s around this conversation because it, yeah, every time I, I, I think about this, I’m like, man, we are talking like tiny, tiny incremental changes in education when really, I think we need to be thinking bigger.

Ron: Yeah, I think so. And, and you know, we see it. So I was explaining to Megan that, you know, as an architect who designed schools for a long time, but then get into the educational planning aspects of it, you realize, oh my gosh, what have we been doing? because educational planning is, it’s like the engine.

To a car, right? So if you were just designing the really nice car that wins design awards, ’cause it’s a Zdi car, but the engine is just, you know, Fred Flintstone with a couple of feet, then what are you doing? And then, you know, the next thing is when you kind of study the Well Building Institute, you realize a whole nother level of, oh, you know, what have we been doing?

You know, these buildings are not supporting the health of these children. And so you get to the point where now you see some resemblance of people really trying to change, you know, make the change. And that has to come from the educators because as planners and architects, we should be asking them, how does this change?

You know, everybody says, oh, it’s a next generation school, we have this many classrooms, we have a gym, we have a cafeteria. Says, okay. So it’s the same thing. We’ve rearranged the chairs on the Titanic and, and you know, I think. If the educators are able to come out and say, we have a new way of engaging the students, we really are gonna do student led design where the students really are in charge and the educators are there for support and mentoring and coaching, and keeping ’em on their path that they choose.

It has to come from the school district, it has to come from the owner, it has to come from the educational leaders. And that’s why I thought this movie was appropriate because we’re at that point, you know, the planet is deteriorated, everybody’s off it. I think education in the industrial model that began how many hundred years ago?

It’s done, it’s run its course. We don’t need that type of education anymore. We need a different type of education.

Kevin: Me, Megan, what do you, what do you think, I wanna hear your thoughts on this, especially, you know, hearing kind of more your background and your specialty. What are the things that you’re thinking about?

Megan: Yeah, Kevin, just like you were talking about education, maybe changing a little slowly. similarly, architecture and construction. Changes for the better, very incrementally, slowly. Um, so at Feigel Alexander, I hit our FA energy team, which is, um, has a real focus on energy efficiency, high performance buildings, sustainability, decarbonization, kind of all the buzzwords that mean like better buildings, right?

and with a focus on envelopes, and we see this all the time that, that, like we have the ability, the knowledge, the data to do buildings that are, are really, really healthy environments for people. Um, I love the passive house standard. It creates environments that are comfortable, great learning environments for students, teachers, everyone using them.

but it can be so hard to get others on board with doing this. and I think again, like that’s why I came back to the, the whole plant like analogy in the movie of that, that one little green plant, it’s like once you see it, you can’t unsee it, right? It’s like all of a sudden you understand that there is.

There’s a better way to do things and, and it’s like, again, this tipping point, this jumping off weight for, for doing things a different way. so that’s what, you know, we’re always driving for, are these better ways of doing things in, in the architecture and design, uh, field, but it can feel kind of slow.

but, you know, the, the data is there, the, like, the ability is there. we’re just hoping to, to push it forward. And I think we’ve, we’ve reached a point now where we’re not just talking about like doing no harm, like build, instead of just [00:35:00] building a building that is at zero. Like it doesn’t detract from the earth.

I think the push now is also to do better than that, to do regenerative design or regenerative building where what we’re doing actually has a positive impact on our environment, on the earth. And, and it obviously on the people who, who use it, but also the people who build it, the, the people that are impacted by extraction of the materials and everything down the supply chain.

Kevin: Carla and I have had a lot of these discussions, like internally too lately of like, how, how do we, like, not, like, as an industry, how do we stop missing these opportunities? Because you’re right. I mean, here when you’re saying we’re saying the same thing, it’s like things are slow, systems are slow.

People like status quo, like this gravity of like doing it the old way is, is really heavy. Like there’s just so much force to, to do that. to me that’s the heart of like, why we even kind of do this like format, you know? I know it could be like lighter and and funnier, but it’s like that.

Storytelling probably is, is what’s gonna move the needle more than the data. And you know, like how, how do we continue to be telling these stories in a way that it does impact the change? Because man, there are a lot of forces that are just gonna say, no, we can’t do that. We can’t do that, we can’t do that.

Ron: You hit the nail on the head. That’s exactly why education has the problem that they have, right? I think there are educators out there who completely realize that we need a more empathetic, you know, social approach. In other words, let the students really make human connections to learn. They should be learning from their older peers, their younger peers.

You know, they should be learning at their own speed, but how do you create that educational platform? And then how do you assess the students, right? How do you make sure that you’re, that they’re reaching the goals and the achieve achievements that they’re trying to make, and get the parents and society to buy into it.

Kevin: Yeah.

Ron: ’cause they’re just not gonna buy into it. And if the parents aren’t buying into it and, you know, the school districts and the people funding these things are not buying into it, it’s just not gonna happen. And so that, that’s really gets us back to the root cause, you know, and the root cause is figure out how to change it and then figure out how to sell it.

And then do it in steps like, don’t come back. Or maybe one way, I shouldn’t say don’t, but, you know, one way is not to say, Hey, we’re gonna create this new mousetrap tomorrow. Throw the old one out, the new one’s in, you know, this is what we’re gonna do. Um, but yet you do it in incremental steps so that people come along with you.

You know, it took a couple hundred years for education to start where it did, to get where it is today. So let’s start the process of retooling and rethinking this. And, you know, it could, it could work.

Carla: Well, I think it all goes back to Wally, right? You just have to keep planting those seeds and it’s just with one, eh, full circle Rod.

Kevin: at that. Carla wraps that up with a

Ron: It’s her. It’s her favorite movie. It’s her favorite movie.

Carla: My all time. Actually, no. I mean, I can’t stop feeling guilty about this because. said it, I mean, Megan, you said it and you were like, it, it goes back to that plant. You know, like it’s one thing, one thing that can, can make that change. And I do think it’s, it’s continuing the conversation, continuously saying it, but the biggest hurdle, honestly, I, I think it’s as it’s people. You can have one person who’s gonna push change and unless they’re like that pilot on the boat or the ship who’s like, Nope, we’re turning off all these systems, we’re going back without any conviction from any one or anything else.

And or the fear of change. I mean, it’s gonna take that one person all of a sudden who’s gonna be like, we did this and it’s amazing. And look at where our kids are at and look at where our school is at and look at where our community is, right? Because you start making those changes, you start seeing, you know, changes.

Within a community and within, within a small society, you know, within a geography. So it’s a seed.

Kevin: Yeah, Carla, I’m going to take that as we wrap this up and, and I’m gonna make this because we have a lot, we have a lot of architects and a lot of school leaders, like a lot in the a and d community, a lot of school leaders that listen to this and that point right there is we need leadership. Like we, we need people that are sitting in those leadership positions to make that call, like that true change maker.

’cause if you talk to anyone in our industry, the data is there. Like, it’s not that we don’t know how to build better schools or more sustainable schools or better learning environments. [00:40:00] We know how we, we absolutely know how we need the leadership to make that decision and not look back and say like, I’m gonna deal like, like we really need strong leaders and um. To me that that’s like the call to action right now is the people that are in these positions and you know, obviously title matters, but every project that we have ever worked that I would say does move the needle, it’s because we’ve had one change maker that just was saying like, we are gonna do it. We are gonna do a different, where there’s a lot of forces that are gonna pull us back in, but we are not gonna miss this opportunity for this, you know, like once every 50 years for the community to build a new school.

And those are the ones that do it. So there is a lot of power from one individual. And to me that would be like the biggest takeaway that that captain made the call. They just made the call and it changed the course of history.

Ron: yeah. But, but you’re right. You know, Kevin, we, Feingold, Alexander’s got a project under construction in Cranston, Rhode Island, the Gladstone School. And it was that owner, that leader, those leaders who said, we’re not gonna build the same old, same old. And they’re building a very different type of environment.

And that very different type of environment is not even done construction yet. And they’ve been working on professional development this whole time. And so, you know, I think that kinda leadership where. We are gonna make a change. We are gonna figure out what we need because we’re training on how we’re gonna need it, and now we’re building it at the same time.

And that’s actually a session that’s gonna take place at learning scapes. And you know, it is a very interesting point about leadership because that’s where it comes from. We would’ve never, no architect would’ve been able to design a school like that without the leadership in place to say, this is what we want to do.

Kevin: Yeah. Yep.

Carla: I wanna look it up and see what it is.

Kevin: know.

Carla: you my curiosity, right?

Kevin: but you think about it. I mean, that is what’s gonna spark the change. And it’s not like, like we, every one of those, if we’re gonna, you know, as an industry, I think if I’m gonna like pat ourselves on the back, is we, we do share a lot information and we do learn from each other and that collective of like, try this, what worked, what didn’t work?

Try this, what worked, what didn’t work is it’s just gonna accelerate it. So that, that’s the optimistic side of me that just is like we, we have like, there are so many things working in our favor right now, but it, but we do just need to keep fostering like that change maker and, and the people really stepping up, um, yeah.

To say, Hey, no, we’re, we’re gonna do it and we may not know all the answers, but we’re gonna figure ’em out as we go. So, uh,

Carla: I

Ron: Carla knows all the answers.

Carla: Listen, I,

Kevin: that.

Carla: we all know, I know nothing. I know nothing. But I do think like we’re on, like, that, that the, the edge of change. Right. And I think that, I mean, I can see it and I can feel it, and, and, and it is, there’s apprehension and there’s a little resistance, but I do think that within, you know, within our time, within our time, ’cause I think we’re all relatively close in age, you minus Megan, she’s so cute.

But like, you just, you’re gonna see it, right? Like, you’re gonna see that change happen and you’re gonna finally be like, yes, this is what we’ve talked about. But by the time that change happens, it’s already gonna be behind.

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Well, this is fun discussion, um, for the audience, if you like these types of things, um, you know, if you wanna be involved, better learning podcast.com is our hub for everything. Please, wherever you’re listening, watching this, just hit subscribe wherever you’re at. And, and really these conversations that we, we do ’em for a reason.

We wanna be able to spark some of that change, that we see to, to keep improving the learning environments and the opportunities for every kid. So, uh, that’s at the core of what we do. So we really appreciate the audience here ’cause so many times and some of the ideas come from there. So there are forms@betterlearningpodcast.com to, to get involved.

Um, but man, Ron, Megan, Carla, good job. We did it. All right.

Ron: This was great. Thank you so much.