Read Transcript:

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Jessica: Welcome listeners to the Radically Student Centered podcast series where we dive into how the, the design of learning spaces directly shapes how student experience education.

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Today we are excited to welcome Sarah dsa, principal at KG and D Architects, whose work is groundbreaking and thought.

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Uh, and student centered, uh, around design.

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She is the lead for her firm’s next gen education, as well as the first female principal at KG and d Architects.

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She has played a key role in the success of award-winning projects and continues to lead the change, in design and community impact.

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So, Sarah, welcome.

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Thank you for joining us today.

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Sarah Dirsa: Thanks for having me.

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Jessica: Absolutely.

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Uh, let’s join, uh, jump right into, you know, how you got involved in the, you know, designing, uh, school communities and learning spaces.

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Sarah Dirsa: Yeah.

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Great.

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So prior to joining KG and D Architects, I was at HOK in the St. Louis office.

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And I, co-founded with, uh, Kimberly Dowdell, the HOP impact, which was our approach to corporate social responsibility.

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And that was looking at how design could positively impact communities.

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We were looking at kind of pro bono or reduce fee projects.

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Uh, donations, volunteer opportunities.

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And one of the things that we were charging each of the offices to do was to look at what was happening in our own backyard.

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So at the time I was living in St. Louis, HOK, our office didn’t do K 12 education, but, the St. Louis public schools were not accredited at that time.

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And I was like, well that’s really something that, you know, impacts where we live, how children grow up.

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Uh, and I had a real interest in it.

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So when I moved back to New York and joined, uh, KG and d that was a real driver of mine to, to work in schools and, And, and be involved in that change.

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prior to that, I had, I was actually a teacher.

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Uh, when I graduated from college, uh, I was an English major and I thought I was going to, do, uh, get a PhD and teach English literature.

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So after that, I moved to to Florence.

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And taught English for a year.

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I had a lot of adult students.

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Um, and when I was, did eventually did go back to grad school for architecture.

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I was involved in a teaching program there too, for architecture, for, for young people.

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Uh, it was what it was called, it was, teaching architecture the fourth to 10th graders.

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Um, so those experiences really kinda shaped my understanding of how How individual learners are and their different needs and how, you know, the, the onus was on me to kind of tailor the way that I taught to make sure that they really understood the material.

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Uh, for example, I had a lot of adult students when I was teaching English, and some of them needed to improve in English to advance in their careers to get the promotions that they hadn’t gotten for a while.

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So that was really important to me to make sure that they understood the material to.

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Kind of tailor the way that I taught in a way that was clear to them that they could, you know, really see that progress.

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And, um, so when I got into school design, that same thinking applied as well, that, you know, all these different, uh, learning styles, the way that, how individual it is, how, you know, not, it’s not a one size fits all for, for students.

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So that kind of put it all together.

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Carla Cummins: So you’ve been all over the place.

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You went from St. Louis to New York to Florence.

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Sarah Dirsa: New York to St. Louis.

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Yeah, I’m, I’m from New York originally, so Yeah,

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Carla Cummins: Okay.

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I was like trying to map this out in my head.

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Where all has she been?

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That’s where I go with it.

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Sarah Dirsa: Yeah.

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Carla Cummins: I go with it.

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So, um, it’s always an inter, it’s always interesting the path that leads someone to designing school facilities and then to like what that is.

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But surprising that you went from teacher to architecture.

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you understand it vastly different than most people doing design of educational facilities.

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Sarah Dirsa: Yeah.

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Well I think, you know, you hear a lot about, right, people who are in education design started in education or, just said, I know you, you know, started in education, you went to furniture.

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So there’s a, there’s, you know, that real kind of tie to it, right?

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I think one thing that helped me, um, going back to grad school for architecture was not having done architecture before and having lived in, in other countries.

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And so just really seeing how people live and, again, kind of tailoring things to different situations, right.

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You know, having those different perspectives, having coming from, from, uh, different backgrounds, really impacts the final result of a design.

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Jessica: Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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And just having that experience, you know, like we spoke about, about the adult learners versus the, you know, student learners and just the philosophy that we
kind of landed on of, you know, making sure that everyone is just having their best experience right in front of them and how each learner is very individualized.

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So how do you take maybe like that philosophy and pedagogy into your projects, um, when you are working with design communities and the decisions that you have to make ultimately.

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Sarah Dirsa: Yeah, I think it’s really important to, to.

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Have these user group meetings in the beginning, right?

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So at KG and D, our tagline is, listen, imagine, build.

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And we really lean heavily on that first word.

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Listen, you know, we don’t know our client’s needs before talking to them.

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We don’t know kind of their past experiences or their future goals, what they, what they want to be until we ask the questions.

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And sometimes maybe they don’t even really know.

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Right?

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And we work through it together.

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But really understanding where they’re coming from, what their pedagogical goals are, how they teach, um, how they learn.

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You know, we’ve worked with Montessori schools, we’re working with a Gio Emilio school right now.

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Um, we work with a lot of public and private schools that are just embracing niche next generation education.

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So seeing where they’re coming from and, uh, how that’s going to shape the classroom design versus the whole school design, that’s really important.

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And meeting them where they are.

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Right.

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So when we were talking before, I, uh, I mentioned this story about when I was teaching in, in architecture school we were, we were working with, uh, with fourth, again, fourth to 10th graders.

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the assignment was, it was around resiliency and kind of how to design for natural disasters, right.

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So, uh, in the beginning I was working more with the older kids.

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kind of helping them and they, that was kind of a challenge on its own right?

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You know, younger kids.

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Are way less, I guess, embarrassed about designs.

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They kind of, ideas just kind of come out and there’s no filtering.

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And when you get a little bit older, that filtering comes into place.

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Right?

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And, and so it was kind of pulling ideas from them a little bit more.

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So that was, that was a fun challenge.

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But one of my colleagues was working with some of the, the fourth grade boys who, and just couldn’t get them to focus, right?

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They didn’t want to pick up.

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A natural disaster that, or can follow the assignment in the way that we thought students might.

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And so I went over to help and was like, all right, what are we gonna do?

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What’s the, what’s the natural disaster that we’re solving for?

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They were like, evil, alien, attacking earth, destroying the earth.

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It’s like, okay, all right, so what’s so bad about that?

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What are they doing?

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And they’re like, well, they’re, they’re throwing acorns from space.

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And it’s like, okay, well it sounds like we need some kind of a net or something, or like a, a nut catcher and just, just like totally rolled with it, right?

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Just, you know, met them where they were.

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and, and the great thing was that like, you know, they got really excited about and they started being like, oh yeah, we could do this.

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And like, building off of each other’s ideas.

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So instead of trying to steer them in a way that, you know, we thought that.

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The assignment wouldn’t be structured.

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It’s just like, yeah, just, just roll with their, with their idea, which is, you know, we said it was like a, it could be a real tragic, natural disaster.

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Not, not incredibly likely, but, you know, it could.

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and they got excited and then they did the project and they had a, had a really great time.

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So that, that idea of.

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How do we get people excited, um, about where they are?

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How do we get them invested?

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How do we kind of meet them where they are, make things that are just for them that kind of really feel personal, right?

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Creating different size spaces, different zones, different number of people, kind of different colors and environments, things like that.

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That’s, that’s what I get really excited about, that, you know, gonna transfer that excitement to the people who are gonna be using the space.

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Carla Cummins: Well, I think too, right at the end of the day, the biggest part of what I heard you say is, is regardless if it’s aliens and acorns or zombie apocalypse, it’s really listening at, at the end of the day, and.

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And acknowledging where people are.

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and I think we have those conversations all the time where you’re just like you in planning schools, teachers need to feel like they’ve been heard.

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While you may not implement everything that’s been indicated is, is a problem.

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Um, or you may not be able to address it in design or on our side with, with furniture or things like that, but it’s listening at, at the end of the day and letting ’em feel heard.

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Sarah Dirsa: Exactly, and you know, we, we talk about how it’s so much harder to tear down something that you’ve helped to build,

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Carla Cummins: Yep.

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Sarah Dirsa: So getting stakeholders involved early, um, like you said, even if you don’t implement all of their ideas, just letting them put them out there.

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Is really important.

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but then also, you know, it’s a combination of listening to the teachers and listening to the administration and kind of where they’re looking to go.

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Right?

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So, some of the challenges that I guess are, are advancing ideas and think, you know, getting away from things that we’ve, that we at our age know as as kind of classroom design or schools and trans, you know.

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Transforming that into a future looking thing that’s gonna like impact our, our students and our children into the future.

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What their career girls are gonna look like and kind of what technology’s gonna be available when they’re adults.

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So, how do we get people on board with those ideas and, and kind of help them to use the spaces that are created, that are, that are different from what they’ve traditionally used.

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Carla Cummins: For sure, for sure.

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And then too, like what’s learning gonna look like in 10 years?

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Right?

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That’s the biggest thing is, is like you’re designing now, but what’s it gonna look like in 10 years and, and what are these, what is the people gonna be doing within that?

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Or what are the people gonna be doing within that space?

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10 years isn’t a huge amount of time, but when, when it comes to it.

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But it’s still, you know, I look at the difference between a 27-year-old and a 15-year-old.

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There’s huge differences in the way that my two kids, learn and the way that they, they engage and they absorb what they’re, what they’re getting.

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So

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Sarah Dirsa: And technology is, is changing like at such a rapid pace, right?

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And how that gets integrated into the schools.

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So.

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I’m, on the working committee for this, a i a New York State Webinar on, uh, it’s an education design summit and we had a, um, a presentation this past
Tuesday and this one quote that I just loved from one of the panelists, uh, who was working with a school, they said, don’t think of this as a school.

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Think of it as a conference center cross for the summer camp.

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Right.

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And like, how do you just like totally re rethink your, Idea and perception of what a school is, right?

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Not classrooms and corridors, but like this way to kind of evolve and move through the spaces in a totally different way.

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Jessica: And what you want that outcome to be too.

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And I keep coming back to this, the beautiful word that you mentioned, and I, we talked about it in that like fourth grade experience of imagine, and
it’s such a, a easy concept for young kids when you get into, you know, stakeholders and adults and they wanna go right to furniture, right to design.

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You’re like, let.

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Pause and imagine what these spaces should look like, feel like, sound like, smell, like, like just really taking out the, the nitty gritty.

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And just like being imaginative is where, you know, we see that sometimes there’s roadblocks and there’s barriers or challenges that come up because they can’t.

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Or they haven’t been asked that before, and so I’m, I’m curious if you had a moment or if you have a project where you were really able to think outside the
box and create something that, that is different, that felt different, that seemed different with the kids, and, and you had that, that full circle experience.

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Sarah Dirsa: Yeah, there’s, so there’s probably a couple that I’m thinking of.

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One is under, under construction right now, so I don’t have kind of the student data, but I’m kind of excited about the, how it was thought through.

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But another one was, we did a, a K five elementary school a few years ago wanted to create a bunch of really collaborative spaces.

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And, uh, so the classrooms themselves had, there’s kind of a traditional classroom size.

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And then right next to that, separated with a sliding glass door was, or acoustic glass door was a, like a collab space we called it.

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So it could, uh, either be connected to the classroom or closed off with visibility through.

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And it was for a smaller group of people to work, and ha still have teacher oversight.

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And then outside the classroom kind of directly attached to that was an even smaller little nook with a built-in bench in the corridor.

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Um, to kind of give those, groups of one to four so they could kind of really take advantage of those, smaller group interactions, right?

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Or individual interactions.

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all of the classrooms really surrounded this big atrium space that we made that was like deli with, uh, with skylights.

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it was Like a communal space in between the learning commons, the makerspace and the art room.

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And they’re all connected with like Glassdoor.

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So it’s really meant to be this kind of like overflow space and kind of give all these different opportunities and zones for, um, maybe, I guess, choice right in where either the students could be or where the teachers assigned them because, um.

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Because it was still elementary school, so, you know, there wasn’t free wandering or anything like that, but just going to open up choice for, for how these teaching moments happen.

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So that one was really cool to kind of see how excited the kids got when they went in and it just, like, it didn’t, that atrium space didn’t really feel like a school so much.

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Right.

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And um, give them something kind of more than they were expecting, right.

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Or what they thought of what a school could be.

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and then with the project that we’re, we’re working on right now, I think it’s, it’s pretty interesting because the, um, the school is at a hundred percent utilization, which is, is pretty rare.

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There’s, there’s no swing space.

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Um, it’s fully occupied all the time, so the rooms really need to do a lot.

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in the, in the lower school, they have a lot of specialists come in.

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Um, it’s, they have to kind of find little.

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Nooks or you know, things where they can, can work with the kids and not disrupt other kids.

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And things have to happen a lot at the same time.

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So in that part of the school, there’s a lot of kind of co-teaching that’s happening that we have to find areas where that could happen.

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And then in the upper school, it’s a really interesting model where the, um, the students stay put for the most part, and the teachers move.

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So each classroom has to be able to.

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Um, support all these different subjects.

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It has to be able to have large group and small group things and, um, and really do a lot to help support the, the teaching environment.

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So what we did was, it was really interesting in terms of kind of pushing and pulling the demising wall between the corridor and the classroom to create nooks, to create zones that.

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Um, where there could either be, benching or nooks in the corridor that were connected to the classrooms to create kind of spaces there for, um, more individual one-on-one, uh, teaching and learning.

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but they also, when they pushed into the classroom, they, in the lower school, they created kind of like gathering zones or, um, spaces that wrapped around, for individual learning or can push in resource things.

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So that was kind of interesting too.

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Um.

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how the architecture could help support how much these classrooms had to do.

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I know, um, a lot of, a lot of this is kind of based on furniture and furniture being flexible and moving around, but it was looking, it was interesting to see how the classroom could do the same thing.

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How the classroom could be, could help to morph and to create opportunities for kind of large group, small group and individual learning at the same time.

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Carla Cummins: Yeah.

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Well, I always think of like the classroom, right?

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As the actual stage.

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You have the stage and then the furniture is the props.

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So what makes the kids, you know, the play of that day is, is that it is, a lot of it is the, the.

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Walking into that threshold and in that classroom design is incredibly important.

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So it, it plays a pivotal role in even what happens within all of the different spaces of the school.

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So, and two, it gives them a feel, like a, I think it creates culture, it creates excitement, and they walk in and they feel good about it.

00:17:10.495 –> 00:17:14.185
They’re gonna walk in and feel good about, you know, learning that day.

00:17:15.095 –> 00:17:15.475
Sarah Dirsa: Yeah.

00:17:15.625 –> 00:17:17.365
The, the student agency, right?

00:17:17.365 –> 00:17:20.485
How they ownership of their space and they’re proud of it.

00:17:20.485 –> 00:17:21.895
That’s, that’s really important.

00:17:22.435 –> 00:17:24.115
Carla Cummins: I’m struggling with words today, Sarah.

00:17:24.115 –> 00:17:25.555
I didn’t have enough coffee.

00:17:25.915 –> 00:17:26.185
Sarah Dirsa: Yeah.

00:17:26.815 –> 00:17:27.880
I’ve got mine right, right here.

00:17:28.675 –> 00:17:39.685
Carla Cummins: Yeah, I told, I told Jessica, I said we were in, or I was with another, uh, one of our team members in Mississippi this week, and I didn’t get in until one 30, so she was just like, lots of coffee.

00:17:39.685 –> 00:17:41.755
I’m like, words are hard today.

00:17:46.575 –> 00:17:51.315
You know, when we work with schools at K 12, it’s not just about furniture design, it’s about impact.

00:17:51.555 –> 00:17:55.695
Our radically student-centered approach puts students at the center of every decision.

00:17:56.055 –> 00:18:02.325
From that first conversation to the final walkthrough, we’re focused on creating spaces that actually work for the kids.

00:18:02.745 –> 00:18:04.095
Teachers and the community.

00:18:04.395 –> 00:18:09.675
So if you’re looking to do more than just check a box on your next project, let’s talk Visit k12.com.

00:18:09.675 –> 00:18:18.405
That’s K-A-Y-T-W-E lve.com and see how we’re helping schools transform learning one student at a time.

00:18:18.735 –> 00:18:22.815
Because at K12 it’s not just about projects and furniture, it’s about purpose.

00:18:27.851 –> 00:18:43.631
Carla Cummins: Well, I think one of the things, obviously, right when Jessica introduced the podcast, we always talk about our, our focus and the
term that we started on the podcast started with Kevin Stoller, our founder was radically student centered, but I’ve heard you say student choice.

00:18:43.631 –> 00:18:47.943
I’ve heard you say, um, things focused on.

00:18:48.808 –> 00:18:54.208
Individual student needs over and over again, even in just the short 20 minutes that we’ve been talking.

00:18:54.508 –> 00:19:00.418
So, out of just curiosity, when we say radically student centered, what does, what does that mean to you?

00:19:00.956 –> 00:19:02.576
Sarah Dirsa: no, it’s, it’s a great question.

00:19:02.636 –> 00:19:09.280
Um, I think, you know, when you think about it, for me, radically, student-centered means, putting the student first, right?

00:19:09.340 –> 00:19:10.870
And the student’s environment.

00:19:11.036 –> 00:19:24.686
Working with educators, you hear a lot about kinda these individualized learning paths and, um, kind kids starting to pave their own way for education, kinda what resonates with them, how they’re gonna, um, apply these to their things, to their actual life.

00:19:24.686 –> 00:19:31.226
So how do we create the spaces that allow that to happen and to get them excited about the opportunity for that happening?

00:19:31.376 –> 00:19:31.706
Right.

00:19:32.831 –> 00:19:36.881
Spaces that, that belong to them, spaces where they feel like they belong.

00:19:37.130 –> 00:19:44.288
you know, spaces that kinda foster community and collaboration, and kind of individual ownership over spaces.

00:19:44.348 –> 00:19:53.742
Uh, so I think that that’s, what’s really exciting about school design is, I guess it’s, it’s how to get other people excited, right?

00:19:53.802 –> 00:19:54.942
Get excited about learning.

00:19:55.352 –> 00:19:55.892
Jessica: Yeah.

00:19:55.983 –> 00:20:04.233
no, I was thinking, uh, ’cause you were sharing your stories and sharing, you know, student rad, uh, radically student centered and this, this idea of visioning, right?

00:20:04.233 –> 00:20:10.623
And this idea that in order to create these spaces, you know, you need to guide sometimes right?

00:20:10.623 –> 00:20:12.153
Stakeholders through these decisions.

00:20:12.153 –> 00:20:15.633
And I love the, the examples that you said because, you know, as an educator.

00:20:15.958 –> 00:20:27.808
When I walk through a school and I see, you know, kids in different types of spaces and they’re sitting by themselves or maybe individually, like I, I don’t have to know the school to know the philosophy and the culture, and that’s what we wanna see.

00:20:27.808 –> 00:20:31.618
We wanna see the culture come out kind of in those learning spaces.

00:20:31.618 –> 00:20:37.198
And so when you know, when you are in that visioning process and you’re meeting with schools, you know how.

00:20:37.603 –> 00:20:52.423
Are there any specific ways that you translate their goals into the approach for your design or, you know, questions that you might ask, or things that
you really wanna make sure that you hit on with these stakeholders so that their design, you know, comes out to life while still obviously guiding them?

00:20:52.783 –> 00:20:56.563
We can’t have foam furniture everywhere as even though everyone wants it, you know?

00:20:56.593 –> 00:20:59.353
How does that, uh, how do you do that process?

00:21:00.118 –> 00:21:05.728
Sarah Dirsa: Yeah, that’s a great question and, and I, it’s gonna depend on like the.

00:21:06.558 –> 00:21:08.328
The direction that the school is, is taken.

00:21:08.328 –> 00:21:08.508
Right?

00:21:08.508 –> 00:21:11.478
Or is the, the pedagogy that they’re, um, pushing forward?

00:21:11.748 –> 00:21:18.373
So we, we talked about this the other day, that, when, when you work with like a Montessori school or a Regio Amelia right?

00:21:18.403 –> 00:21:21.973
Their pedagogy is so well defined, right?

00:21:21.973 –> 00:21:25.543
And, and working with them to find, to design the space.

00:21:26.863 –> 00:21:41.713
know what they wanna do, and they know that the educational material has to be showcased and they have philosophies on material and kind of, and wood and, you know, kind of a natural environments.

00:21:41.713 –> 00:21:48.523
And, uh, so it’s, it’s about decluttering the spaces and creating these opportunities for learning environments.

00:21:48.523 –> 00:21:55.813
So that’s, it’s, it’s almost, um, it’s kind of easy working with that because they, they know what they want.

00:21:56.323 –> 00:22:02.473
There’s a model that’s shown it and it’s just how do we kind of really enhance that and make it really special for that particular place.

00:22:02.552 –> 00:22:19.262
and in a way that works for them when you’re working with a school that’s still kinda defining where it’s going, right, what the next gen
generation education looks like for them and if they’ve got a strategic plan and how they’re kinda developing their thoughts around however, number.

00:22:19.877 –> 00:22:20.777
Like the Cs, right?

00:22:20.777 –> 00:22:23.477
It started I think as four Cs and seven Cs, right?

00:22:23.477 –> 00:22:25.427
Collaboration, communication, all those things.

00:22:25.427 –> 00:22:25.697
Right?

00:22:26.057 –> 00:22:47.839
Um, that’s kind of a real opportunity to partner with them on kind of how their vision for education is really shaped how they are using technology in
spaces to enhance their curriculum, how they’re, Think, rethinking their thoughts about kind, kind of classroom and community spaces and communal areas.

00:22:47.839 –> 00:22:54.768
So that’s kind of a, a fun part of, of the design of working with them is kind, figuring out what that looks like going forward.

00:22:55.708 –> 00:23:05.278
Jessica: It’s kind of like a puzzle that you’re kind of creating together because technology and then book bags where you’re gonna put those in cubbies and where they go, like these are, you know, sometimes always afterthoughts.

00:23:05.278 –> 00:23:11.038
And so having such a clear vision process, um, is, is just so important for the school to also put them at ease.

00:23:11.038 –> 00:23:16.133
There’s so many decisions that everyone’s making that as long as that shared vision and, you know.

00:23:16.623 –> 00:23:22.563
Uh, we’re, we’re leading towards that goal then, you know, hopefully we can, we can make those correct decisions.

00:23:22.563 –> 00:23:26.853
But I find that very, you know, fascinating, especially with your background education.

00:23:26.853 –> 00:23:35.763
You probably come to it knowing like, we got to get some, we gotta get the ball rolling with some philoso, uh, philosophical things too, or else this design is just not gonna work out correctly.

00:23:36.693 –> 00:23:36.903
Sarah Dirsa: Yeah.

00:23:36.903 –> 00:23:42.063
But, uh, you know, you, you brought up cubbies, um, and backpacks, you know, figuring out those kind.

00:23:43.123 –> 00:23:51.643
What maybe like banal types of things really, or like, storage is like really important ’cause that it takes up a, a huge footprint in the room.

00:23:51.798 –> 00:24:00.888
it really impacts the flow of how students move through the space and how, you know, if teaching is, is more seamless or interrupted with kind of getting up and down say that.

00:24:00.888 –> 00:24:05.718
So figuring out the storage and, and trying to be creative with that is really important.

00:24:06.270 –> 00:24:10.740
Carla Cummins: I am always surprised and I, I went into a school yesterday and walked in and was like.

00:24:11.925 –> 00:24:21.585
What in the pack rat happened here, and you sometimes don’t realize that not everybody learns in that type of space.

00:24:21.585 –> 00:24:21.795
Right?

00:24:21.795 –> 00:24:25.755
The chaos of what’s around them and what they’re experiencing.

00:24:25.755 –> 00:24:28.875
I am a person who would not do great in that space.

00:24:28.875 –> 00:24:31.905
So I think that it’s just you naturally look.

00:24:32.460 –> 00:24:33.330
At things like that.

00:24:33.330 –> 00:24:35.790
So there, there are incredibly important things.

00:24:35.790 –> 00:24:40.230
Well, as we like close up and we, we wrap up our conversation.

00:24:40.230 –> 00:24:48.840
I, I wonder, so we all have this a one project that we think of in our career, one thing, right?

00:24:49.260 –> 00:24:56.676
Is there one project that you can think of that really made an impact in what you do on a day-to-day basis?

00:24:56.883 –> 00:25:08.480
That’s maybe impacted your path or, has been instrumental in the way that you, you know, interface with clients or students or whatever it might be.

00:25:08.480 –> 00:25:12.230
It can be, it could be just like the smallest thing, Sarah, you just never know,

00:25:13.510 –> 00:25:14.590
Sarah Dirsa: that’s a, that’s a tough one.

00:25:14.831 –> 00:25:18.281
This is maybe, maybe I’ll pick one that’s like completely different, right?

00:25:18.281 –> 00:25:26.111
That, um, I don’t, I guess I don’t think about this one that often, but when I do, I’m, it is pretty cool.

00:25:26.111 –> 00:25:30.491
So this was back when I was at, at HOK, uh, and it’s not even, it’s not a school project.

00:25:30.947 –> 00:25:33.047
we had a corporate account.

00:25:33.347 –> 00:25:36.992
Um, it was a. For, uh, for Humana.

00:25:36.992 –> 00:25:39.602
They were a corporate interiors, uh, client of ours.

00:25:39.632 –> 00:25:46.069
And, I was, uh, brought onto to the Humana team to, to do some, uh, ground up buildings for them.

00:25:46.309 –> 00:25:52.579
Uh, and then kind of stayed to do bunch of other kind of random interior projects and, and things.

00:25:52.579 –> 00:25:59.023
But they had, It was in the Humana Tower in, in Louisville, and it was a, it was a Michael Graves design building.

00:25:59.683 –> 00:26:00.313
It was really cool.

00:26:00.313 –> 00:26:07.213
And, and the challenge was that the security booth was just too small for all the equipment that they had.

00:26:07.243 –> 00:26:09.223
’cause this was designed however long ago.

00:26:09.553 –> 00:26:17.075
Uh, everything was kind of encased in marble in the lobby and there just, there just wasn’t the footprint To make it bigger.

00:26:17.765 –> 00:26:35.013
it is a tiny project and I think when they were thinking about redoing it, they were like, you know, all of the, the screens would have to be up at the
ceiling and it was tough and they didn’t really, I guess there were some preconceived ideas about how it might work going forward, and none of them were great.

00:26:35.523 –> 00:26:39.243
So it was a really nice opportunity to pause and.

00:26:40.338 –> 00:26:43.788
Uh, step back and be like, is that, is that really what we wanna do?

00:26:43.878 –> 00:26:44.178
Right.

00:26:44.178 –> 00:26:50.358
And, and just going back to the, the kind of the banal things that might influence a project.

00:26:50.358 –> 00:26:59.178
It’s like I had done an auditorium before and I knew that like viewing angles for people in the front row wants to be between like 19 and 21 degrees, right?

00:26:59.178 –> 00:27:06.828
So like, so craning your neck to look up at these screens was gonna be a real challenge, uh, and said, well, what if we just don’t do that?

00:27:07.158 –> 00:27:10.398
What if we kind of put them on the side and bump it out and build it.

00:27:10.398 –> 00:27:14.328
And it was just like one of those aha, like, they’re like, yeah, let’s just do that.

00:27:14.328 –> 00:27:20.470
And so it was again like a really small project that, Didn’t impact too many.

00:27:20.470 –> 00:27:35.800
It was, you know, impacted like the, the, the two people who’d be sitting at the desk, but just rethinking, um, some preconceived notions
about what it should have been and, and, and being able to like impact a, a Michael Graves building was, was kind of, was kind of neat.

00:27:35.800 –> 00:27:36.760
So, yeah.

00:27:37.330 –> 00:27:49.232
Carla Cummins: Yeah, there’s always that, that one project I was, it was years ago, but We were at a conference, I think, I don’t even know remember what it was, but, and everyone was sitting around talking of like, what’s your claim to fame?

00:27:49.232 –> 00:27:49.712
Right?

00:27:49.892 –> 00:27:55.872
And one was like, I designed the stairs at, or I did a redesign of the stairs at.

00:27:56.867 –> 00:27:59.267
In the Coronado building in San Diego.

00:27:59.267 –> 00:27:59.627
Right.

00:27:59.837 –> 00:28:00.977
The round staircase.

00:28:00.977 –> 00:28:03.797
That’s like the signature building or the signature staircase.

00:28:03.917 –> 00:28:10.967
And then another lady goes, well, oddly enough, I used to design fountains and I designed the fountain at Bellagio.

00:28:11.387 –> 00:28:18.377
And so sitting around in this group of architects, you’re, you’re sitting there thinking, I’m like, you design fountains like a water fountain?

00:28:18.377 –> 00:28:19.637
And she’s like, no, ding-dong.

00:28:19.637 –> 00:28:21.377
You know, like real fountains like.

00:28:23.792 –> 00:28:28.562
I’m hoping still to this day that I was several drinks in, but you just never know, right.

00:28:29.372 –> 00:28:38.732
That there was this one project that you’re just like, it made a significant impact on the way that I, that way that I think about things or the way that I process things.

00:28:38.732 –> 00:28:50.822
And you know, in each of those it was, uh, well, we had to think about the history of the building and how it would ultimately impact, you know, the, the integrity of the.

00:28:51.182 –> 00:29:00.092
Preservation of this historic building, and then the, obviously the fountain at Bellagio is what you walk into and it’s that centerpiece and it’s, it’s beautiful.

00:29:00.092 –> 00:29:04.142
So anyway, so I always, I’m always curious about, about those types of things.

00:29:04.142 –> 00:29:04.952
So, Jessica,

00:29:05.341 –> 00:29:14.041
Jessica: well, I mean, I also have different designs too that I’ve definitely gone through, but I do take with me, I had one moment, I was a teaching.

00:29:14.071 –> 00:29:14.941
That’s where I come from.

00:29:15.121 –> 00:29:22.621
So, you know, my role is really to be a learning space integrator and to be integrated into the project as that educator and help them, guide them through that.

00:29:22.621 –> 00:29:23.251
And, uh.

00:29:23.344 –> 00:29:30.713
as a assistant principal, I had a group during testing time, the assistant principal’s, admin always gets like the behavior kids in a group in a small room.

00:29:30.713 –> 00:29:35.243
And I was in a public school, didn’t have a lot of money, and so the room that I was in had no chairs.

00:29:35.303 –> 00:29:37.943
I had to run through the building and I grabbed what I could.

00:29:37.943 –> 00:29:38.723
I grabbed a cushion.

00:29:38.723 –> 00:29:39.743
I grabbed like a stool.

00:29:39.743 –> 00:29:41.093
It was a practice test and.

00:29:41.603 –> 00:29:52.853
When they came in, you know, I had them pick their chair and it was just like this small moment of just having kids being able to have, again, that little bit of choice that Sarah talked about completely changed.

00:29:52.853 –> 00:30:04.613
Now I don’t, I don’t have their data, I don’t think it changed their data, but it changed the way they came into a room knowing that
they were gonna take a test for two hours with a pen and paper and, you know, and it was a moment of panic for me, but at, at the end.

00:30:05.053 –> 00:30:08.233
At the end of the day, I had to take it for what it was and it was a win in my book.

00:30:08.263 –> 00:30:12.973
But thinking about student, student centered, right, radically student centered.

00:30:13.093 –> 00:30:20.413
What is, uh, one takeaway that you want the listeners to really remember just about being radically student centered in their projects?

00:30:20.413 –> 00:30:20.443
I.

00:30:20.810 –> 00:30:33.331
Sarah Dirsa: I think a big takeaway, uh, should be that, Just because we learned in a certain way or or schools left a certain way when we were growing up, doesn’t mean that that’s how it has to continue.

00:30:33.451 –> 00:30:33.721
Right.

00:30:33.721 –> 00:30:44.209
And this, um, process of evolving and listening to, the direction that teachers or, administration has about where they wanna go and how, how students wanna learn.

00:30:44.209 –> 00:30:49.129
I think that’s really important of, and, and I’m really excited about what schools are gonna look like.

00:30:49.309 –> 00:30:50.659
Karl, like you’re saying, in 10 years Right.

00:30:50.659 –> 00:30:51.859
You know that it’s.

00:30:52.134 –> 00:30:53.214
It could change a lot.

00:30:53.214 –> 00:31:07.974
And, and I think the more that people talk about this, the more excited that people get about these opportunities for, for change and how, you know, seeing examples of it, the, the faster it’ll go, uh, the easier it’ll be for people to buy into.

00:31:08.385 –> 00:31:10.780
and the better the outcome it’ll be for the people involved.

00:31:11.940 –> 00:31:12.930
Carla Cummins: Yeah, absolutely.

00:31:12.930 –> 00:31:18.330
Well, as we close, Jessica, do you wanna, um, tell our listeners where to find us and

00:31:18.415 –> 00:31:19.825
Jessica: Absolutely.

00:31:19.855 –> 00:31:21.355
Thank you so much for your time.

00:31:21.475 –> 00:31:25.615
Thank you for expertise and insights today, Sarah, and it was a pleasure learning from you.

00:31:25.855 –> 00:31:33.420
If listeners would like to hear more or share their own radically student centered moments, we invite you to like, comment, and share@betterlearningpodcast.com.

00:31:34.410 –> 00:31:34.820
Take care.