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Matt Rogers: Welcome back to the Better Learning Podcast.

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My name is Matt Rogers, and in this special episode, we’re taking you on the road with us to hear directly from members of the A4LE Association for Learning Environments community.

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Over the past several months, we had the opportunity to attend several A4LE regional conferences across the country, connecting with
architects, educators, planners, designers, and industry partners who are all passionate about creating better learning environments.

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At each conference, we asked attendees a few questions: What does it mean to be radically student-centered?

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What are the biggest opportunities and challenges facing educational facility planning and design today?

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What conversations should more people in our industry be having?

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And of course, we threw in a few fun local questions along the way.

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This episode features conversations and insights from A4LE Southern Regional Conference in Austin, Texas without further ado, let’s dive in

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Dr. Brian McCraw: first question for you: How do you approach a school design process with maximum impact in mind, not just replacing an old building?

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So what do you consider when you’re about to build a new campus that hopefully yields better results academically?

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Jody Sergei: At Kirksey, we have a really unique process, I believe, of involving the community and the end users and the, the people with a, a vested interest in that, building.

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we do a lot of visioning sessions where we incorporate students and parents and teachers and community members that, we want them to feel like they have a voice,
and we want them to be heard, and we want to hear their, their vision because if you build a building that no one- You know, has any buy-in, they’re not going to-

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Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm

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Jody Sergei: they’re not gonna take care of it, they’re not gonna, you know, they’re not gonna love it.

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So, we do a number of sessions with all of those people, sometimes all together, sometimes separate, and make sure that it’s recorded and that we, we share the information that we gathered from those sessions so that there’s a record of it.

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And say, like, “This is what we’re going to pay attention to as we move into the design phase.” And we’re gonna continually look back at it and
say, ” what did everyone tell us they wanted this building to be?” So that we can then make sure it’s reflected all the way through the project.

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Um, because I think that’s the only way you’re gonna be able to- Of course

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make that impact.

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Cody Boyd: I think that the first step is understanding the client and the district.

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Um, ’cause maximizing can mean different things to different people.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so to one district, maximizing might be square footage.

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To another client it might be quality of materials and circulation and flow or maybe they really want outdoor learning as a key, uh, portion of it.

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So The real thing to start off with is what does the client want?

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How do they wanna teach, and what are their priorities?

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From there, you can then maximize their priorities.

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‘Cause we are in a service, culture and environment.

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Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm.

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Cody Boyd: Uh, and we do provide a product, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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as a designer, you know, you have these ideas and these dreams, and you wanna make amazing spaces, but at the end of the day, we provide a service, and my goal is to make sure that our clients are absolutely thrilled with their end product.

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Olivia Graf: I know, uh, you know, what we do as a company aligns… I mean, we’re completely 100% education-focused, but, you know, that comes in a lot of different forms.

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And where we really align, I think, with, with K-12 and, and with all that you guys are kind of talking about radically student-centered design- Mm-hmm

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that’s sort of- Thank you for

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Dr. Brian McCraw: mentioning that.

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Yeah.

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That’s a trademark.

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Radically student-centered K-12.

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Thank you.

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Olivia Graf: But, uh, uh, we approach with sort of the students at the forefront, right, as well.

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That’s right.

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Uh, that design should be student-centered, and kinda what that means to us is that, you know, it’s focused on agency, right, and creating that agency.

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And that starts in the design process with maybe gathering a lot of input, um, from students, teachers, and it’s still, you know, being student-centered.

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Mm-hmm.

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Having the teachers in mind is critical, too, and the staff that’s, uh, on the campus and the community because they can all be involved to help that.

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you know, student thrive, right?

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Right.

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So, so gathering all that input, doing that visioning, and then creating spaces and designing spaces with them and with their voices, um, in order to, you know, create that
passion for, you know, curiosity and imagination and creativity, and a love of learning because that will serve students well and translate, right, throughout their whole lives.

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Right.

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So, and then really, you know, that, that agency doesn’t stop at, in the design, but in later on the spaces that we’ve created- Yeah … and giving them the, the freedom to choose what best suits their learning.

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So building in that sort of, um, diversity and learning opportunities directly into the architecture and landscape.

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Um, so that’s kind of always what we focus on and, and creating a story out of that.

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Katie Becker: I think you hit the nail on the head with the word process there.

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Mm-hmm.

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Is you have to give yourself enough time to make sure you’re doing it right, ’cause I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard from districts or community members that they wanna do it right the first time, and I couldn’t agree more.

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Uh, but you have to give yourselves the time to do that and not try and squeeze it into, uh, a tiny bit of timeframe where you don’t have the opportunity to lay the groundwork and have the c- uh, communication and the engagement with your community.

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Uh, for me, that’s where everything starts, and it continues throughout the process of the design.

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Right.

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Uh, you’ve got to start listening to community right away, uh, understanding what they’re looking for and what they value.

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Gary Armbruster: The first thing I do is, ask can we speak to the students?

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That’s, that’s an important factor for how we design.

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They’re the end user, th- them and the teachers together.

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Uh, many times, believe it or not, a lot of districts will say, “You’re just gonna speak to the principal or the superintendent, the administration,” and not really allow
you the opportunity to speak, uh, to the teachers that’s using the room, the students that’s using the room and the space, and what they feel is important and not important.

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Um, we… I attended a presentation the other day where, um, I think someone from a district said, “We have students that will not go to the restroom all day long because they’re afraid to go into the
bathrooms, afraid what might happen.” So I think, um, knowing those things ahead of time gives you the opportunity to create spaces that, um, is important to them and makes them feel safe and secure.

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Dr. Brian McCraw: What is one big idea or trend in school design that you guys are seeing right now that’s really overused or misunderstood?

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Easy Foster: Well, we heard about it in some of our, one of our superintendent’s panel this morning.

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Mm-hmm.

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One of the superintendents picked on learning stairs.

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Right?

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I mean, so they are, they are-

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Dr. Brian McCraw: Easy, you’re the third person today- Right

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that’s mentioned that.

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Easy Foster: Well, I mean, but what we haven’t talked about really is why they’re so difficult.

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Why do we need rules on them?

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Why do, I mean, and, and we see it in collaborative spaces and all other new innovative areas in our buildings.

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In the back of my head, I, I’ve seen how our campus is run and they operate, and I’ve been, there was a period in my career where I had to substitute
teach in order to remember why I have a job, and they’ve, they’ve since that requirement has, has gone away out of necessity more than anything else.

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Right.

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if you’ve been in a campus and try to figure out when is a student gonna go, or a group of students gonna go hang out on that learning stair, uh, or even in the collaboration zone and actually collaborate-

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Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm

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… Easy Foster: generally speaking unsupervised, when, when does that happen during the school day, right?

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So we’re hyper-concerned with the number of minutes of education.

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So we schedule our, our bell schedules are not at, at the fives and 10s.

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They’re at seven- That’s

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Dr. Brian McCraw: right

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… Easy Foster: eight, 14.

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Mm-hmm.

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I mean, because they are worried about minute to minute- That’s right … operation of the day.

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Correct.

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So when do they have the time to get out and use those spaces effectively?

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Dr. Brian McCraw: What’s the boldest idea you’ve ever pushed for in a school, and how did you convince the community to take that risk?

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Gary Armbruster: We are doing a school of aviation in Norman.

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It’s basically, a school that multiple high schools and r- actually high schools throughout the state of Oklahoma.

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It’s really a high school for Norman, but it’s a high school for the state where you can do distance learning, things like that.

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But one of the things they wanted to do, “Man, wouldn’t it be great if we could fly drones?” And well, we’re near an airport, and so drone flying is, you know, a little bit prohibited, uh, on the outside.

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And I said, “Well, what about if we fly them inside?” Mm-hmm.

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And they’re like, “Ah, we, we can’t do that.” I’m like, “Well, but why?” And so we had more of a, a deeper conversation.

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You know, students are gonna learn.

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I mean, they have drone races in, uh, nationally.

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Uh, and so what are the things that we could do to, um, this gym or multipurpose space to make it safe for drone flying, uh, teach the students how to do it in a safe way.

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So that’s probably the b- you know, recently one of the biggest things I’ve done.

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Like, hey, we can fly drones safely in here and without, uh, hurting anyone and, and making students understand that, you know, we, they can do that, so.

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Nick Marmolejo: What’s something in maybe school design that more people should be talking about?

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Brad Hunt: we, um, led a breakout on bond, uh, planning and community engagement.

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We had a good, good crowd of people there.

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That was, that was really good.

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I’ve gone to two other ones.

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One of… Both of them kind of had the same, theme, and it was how can you, reposition schools or transform physical spaces- Mm

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because, uh, some school districts are dealing with, uh, inv- uh, enrollment declines and aging buildings, and is it better to, you know, combine buildings or what to do?

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And one district is doing a, a pre-K/8th grade- Okay … model, which I thought was so smart and- Mm … just looked very cool and, and different.

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Uh, another one was working on, um…

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and this maybe came from the panel as a, as a topic to explore, but a, uh, elementary senior center kind of merge.

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Okay.

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I don’t think that’s in development yet, but it was one, like, how can we be innovative in that kind of space?

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So I think that, you know, unfortunately, school districts are dealing with some really tough things right now.

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And so I think what, um, you know, really id- identifies, uh, the strength of educators is their ability to work through those challenges.

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So I think just really thinking, “Okay, what is this next iteration going to look like?” And so, you know, there was a lot of talk of kind of the same things that we hear a lot about natural lighting and- Mm

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all that impacts student performance, and collaborative spaces, and making sure that whatever the learning environment looks like, what career world’s gonna be, you know, how does AI fit into all of that.

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Yes.

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So there was a lot of those kinds of things to, to be determined, but I do think that there’s an opportunity now to really look at these spaces in, in a different way.

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Gary Armbruster: Uh, definitely trauma-informed design.

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we did a school for homeless children back in 2019 that opened up.

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It was a McConnell finalist in 2020.

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the kids at, at this school in particular, are homeless.

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they could be living in cars, they could be living in homeless shelters, they could be couch homeless, living on an aunt or an uncle’s couch for short times.

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Uh, but they bring trauma.

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And so I never really thought about that before, that not only at a s- school for homeless children, but a school for any high school, any elementary, any middle school, you never know what students are going through.

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Parents could lose jobs.

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They may not- Yes … have the ability to buy shoes, to buy a backpack at the first day of school.

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So implementing, um, when I talked about implementing drones into a school, I think the idea of implementing things that kids need on a daily basis.

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So a donation closet is something that’s, um, we always try to implement.

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It’s not always thought about, “Well, we don’t have the space for that.” And it’s not only a donation closet for backpack, shoes, clothing that the student may need, school supplies.

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It could be food, a food pantry.

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Um, implementing, uh, a shower, and I’m not talking about in a locker room- Right … but a safe and secure space that if a student, is transitional in housing- Wow

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that they can go to, uh, take a shower.

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We’ve all been to high school.

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High schoolers can be mean to one another.

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M- middle schoolers can be mean to one another.

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Yes.

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If a student sticks out in any way and it’s not their fault, it’s like, we can fix this.

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And if it’s simply a shower, A pair of shoes, a new set of clothes, a new backpack, things that can help them fit in.

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Um, we need to be thinking about those things, and they’re simple things that any school could be, uh, they could, uh, be implemented into any school.

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But, uh, I think really just making sure that the audience looks at a school in a different way, that not only the students are created equal.

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A lot of schools are labeled, oh, this is a rich high school, or this is a poor high school, or whatever.

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We’ve got these issues in every school from elementary to high school in, in the nation, and I think just incorporating those, thinking about
trauma, thinking about how we, uh, deal with, acoustics, lighting, and those elements, um, in every school is important to each and every student.

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Dr. Brian McCraw: What advice would you give school leaders when it comes to furniture and design- Mm-hmm … and implementing that change into their school?

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Sloan McLain: I think it is setting the culture of risk-taking, of trying something new, of figuring out what is the manageable small first and next steps to try, and being super specific about the measure of success for that step and how we’re going to move.

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So, you know, something as basic as letting students come in and choose where they’re going to sit- … and being able to move around the classroom.

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Mm-hmm.

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And when it comes independent work, they can go and they can talk to a peer, they can go sit by themselves, you know, they can sit underneath a table, they can sit facing the wall.

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Yeah.

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You know, that kind of, try experiment, you know.

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And then we’re gonna come back and we’re gonna reflect on what’s working and what’s not, and why.

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You know?

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And so I think the culture of risk-taking and trying new things because, it’s never just the teacher and it’s certainly not just the kid, um, that’s the problem.

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I think there is a, it does need to be a collective impact approach to change where the, the student, we’re, we’re developing procedures collaboratively with the kids, in regard to those small steps, how they’re gonna choose their seats, for example.

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Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm.

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Sloan McLain: and the, the, the teacher knows what they’re going to do because they’ve been in community with their grade level team or their subject level team
or their vertical team, in thinking about what those procedures might be in terms of developing them collaboratively and how they’ll know they’ll be successful.

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And the principal is follow- or the instructional coach, there’s a, there’s a follow-through conversation, there’s a circle back
reflection on what’s working and what’s not, that I think is very much missing from instruction or missing from, from the way we teach.

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and so that advice is setting an expectation collaboratively with the faculty, helping the faculty understand how they’re going to set those procedures up collaboratively
with the students, and then coming back and, hey, maybe even getting the students to come into the conversation and reflect on what’s working and what’s not.

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and moving forward as a team,

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Dr. Brian McCraw: What’s an idea or concept you guys have had, or maybe within the industry, that you know works, it has worked, and you’ve presented it to stakeholders at a school, and they’re like, “Nope, we don’t want that. We want it like this”?

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Can you think of a situation or a time where that’s something you guys were like, “Y’all need this.

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and They’re like, “No, we don’t want it.”

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Jody Sergei: The one I’m thinking of was, is not necessarily architecture related- Mm-hmm … but it was a project that had a very passionate community.

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Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm.

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Jody Sergei: And we said, “You need to show them.

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You need to show them.” And the school said, “No, we’re good.” it got all the way to the board, and then the community came and said, “We’ve never seen this, and we’re up- we’re upset, and no one talked to us.” And, and so, um-

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Dr. Brian McCraw: Politics

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… Jody Sergei: I just can’t stress- … enough how if you have a passionate community-

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Dr. Brian McCraw: Uh-huh.

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You better listen to them

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… Jody Sergei: like let them, let them in, or else it will catch you on the tail end.

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Dr. Brian McCraw: So what trends or current innovations or things that are going on right now in design-

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Olivia Graf: Mm-hmm

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Dr. Brian McCraw: that excite you the most, and why?

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In other words, what’s happening that you’re just, like, really, really gung ho about when- Hmm … it comes to architectural design for, for new schools?

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Olivia Graf: We’re actually doing an, a new, a transformation of an existing campus right now, and, um, but replacing or building three new buildings and then renovating some of the others, and really just transforming the whole- Mm-hmm

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the whole campus.

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And it’s all based around, well, the idea is what if you could go to school in a forest, and go on a hike through your f- through your school- Mm-hmm … and
all the things that you might discover and explore and learn about your peers, about yourself, about your, your whole sort of creating this community.

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focusing on nature-based play, you know, that’s a big thing.

00:17:40.753 –> 00:17:48.113
And then, um, sort of just the freedom to have different types of spaces, and intentionally creating those different spaces.

00:17:48.403 –> 00:17:55.693
So you might have a quiet little nook, or you might have, you know, a, a larger sort of clearing or gathering area- Yeah

00:17:55.703 –> 00:18:02.447
or, somewhere where there’s water play, or, creating different things for music or the senses or sounds.

00:18:02.971 –> 00:18:06.971
The, the excitement is where they mesh together and sort of just become one, right?

00:18:06.981 –> 00:18:15.881
So you’ve got this seamless movement throughout the campus where you’re always learning, from your buildings, from your, you know, from the nature, from each other, so.

00:18:16.747 –> 00:18:23.347
Dr. Brian McCraw: So if you’re gonna design a school now for graduates from 20 years from now, what would you do different now?

00:18:24.197 –> 00:18:33.827
Jody Sergei: I think a lot about how we, we’ve come so far, but when you look at a traditional classroom, we haven’t really, right?

00:18:33.847 –> 00:18:35.247
It’s still four walls.

00:18:35.337 –> 00:18:35.707
Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm.

00:18:35.827 –> 00:18:37.777
Jody Sergei: It has a marker board at the front.

00:18:37.927 –> 00:18:37.957
Right.

00:18:38.317 –> 00:18:40.317
It has a teacher’s desk.

00:18:40.357 –> 00:18:41.767
It has tech boards.

00:18:41.817 –> 00:18:41.977
Mm-hmm.

00:18:41.977 –> 00:18:52.367
And, and that ne- that never seems to change for, I mean, in the, in the 20 years I’ve been doing this, like, that’s every classroom.

00:18:52.387 –> 00:18:52.787
Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm.

00:18:52.967 –> 00:18:58.467
Jody Sergei: And we have made great strides with flexible spaces- Right

00:18:58.467 –> 00:19:01.617
and collaboration areas, and what do our libraries look like?

00:19:01.617 –> 00:19:02.567
Are they media centers?

00:19:02.567 –> 00:19:03.277
Are they libraries?

00:19:03.477 –> 00:19:06.917
Um, that’s an awesome, fascinating conversation-

00:19:06.997 –> 00:19:07.297
Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm

00:19:07.377 –> 00:19:09.137
… Jody Sergei: about what libraries will become.

00:19:09.284 –> 00:19:13.794
classroom stays – That’s true … always the same, and I just feel like we’re missing-

00:19:14.134 –> 00:19:14.534
Dr. Brian McCraw: Missing something

00:19:14.554 –> 00:19:16.114
Jody Sergei: an opportunity.

00:19:16.624 –> 00:19:21.484
I might say that it, it could become more immersed in technology-

00:19:21.574 –> 00:19:21.904
Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm

00:19:22.074 –> 00:19:24.104
… Jody Sergei: as we go 20 years into the future.

00:19:24.174 –> 00:19:24.494
Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm.

00:19:24.704 –> 00:19:30.434
Jody Sergei: And that it’s not just four walls and a, and a marker board at the front, but it’s something more

00:19:32.444 –> 00:19:41.304
Nick Marmolejo: So in your experience, what would you say separates a school that simply functions from one that truly transformed the community in positive ways?

00:19:41.914 –> 00:19:52.794
Brad Hunt: I think your transformational schools are ones that fully embrace their role as a school, that they understand that obviously academics are important, they’re paramount, that’s why we’re at a school.

00:19:52.964 –> 00:19:53.074
Right.

00:19:53.194 –> 00:20:06.219
But the, uh, mental, capacity, the social-emotional learning, the physical, space, the physical activities, I mean, all of those things I think are, are really important, too.

00:20:06.219 –> 00:20:16.625
I mean, you really, in my opinion, have to focus on the whole child and the whole learning experience, and those school districts, uh, and schools specifically that are transforming- Mm-hmm

00:20:16.635 –> 00:20:28.455
learning have that visionary leader, a principal that’s dynamic, forward-thinking, risk-taker, not afraid to jump out there, but also has created structures that support that.

00:20:29.758 –> 00:20:32.497
Sloan McLain: I think It’s, it’s strong leadership.

00:20:32.846 –> 00:20:37.386
Um, it’s probably the go-to answer for most people, but it is the truth.

00:20:37.466 –> 00:20:39.456
Um, the leader sets the culture.

00:20:39.906 –> 00:20:42.625
The leader, the leader helps, hold people accountable-

00:20:42.699 –> 00:20:56.066
for the cultural shift, and makes the hard choices, and has the hard conversations that make sure that every kid is greeted and treated and invited into learning experiences that have high expectations- Mm-hmm

00:20:56.066 –> 00:20:57.346
for what that kid can achieve.

00:20:57.524 –> 00:21:22.022
and I think the requirement that I believe should be held for every teacher to have high expectations for every kid can sometimes fall through the cracks with the amount of pressures that teachers
are under, with the amount of, you know, different initiatives they’re juggling, uh, the different, you know, pressures from, from all sides in terms of standardized testing in some place like Texas.

00:21:22.346 –> 00:21:34.496
and it’s the leader who sets the tone, not only of those high expectations, but the joy and- Mm-hmm … the, the passion for learning that we want to instill in everyone.

00:21:34.596 –> 00:21:35.174
You know, and- Yeah, and it

00:21:35.174 –> 00:21:36.636
Dr. Brian McCraw: goes back to the culture and climate you just described.

00:21:36.636 –> 00:21:36.826
Yeah.

00:21:36.826 –> 00:21:40.216
So the, the leader kind of dictates everything.

00:21:40.836 –> 00:21:41.826
Sloan McLain: And brings- You know?

00:21:41.826 –> 00:21:56.346
in the community, you know, helps to set the pace and the, the climate for collaboration- Mm-hmm … so that the newer teachers are welcomed, the seasoned teachers’, you know, strengths are honored.

00:21:56.424 –> 00:22:02.367
there’s an expectation to work in collaboration, to learn from each other, to model you know, model for each other.

00:22:02.397 –> 00:22:02.732
Dr. Brian McCraw: Right.

00:22:03.467 –> 00:22:08.727
What does a strong partnership between design firms and educational leaders look like, and why does it matter?

00:22:09.445 –> 00:22:10.465
Gary Armbruster: it’s, it’s important.

00:22:10.465 –> 00:22:16.465
I look at things in many ways like a three-legged stool, and, and I’m gonna add a contractor to this.

00:22:16.475 –> 00:22:26.805
A three-legged stool to me is the educational leadership, the architect, and the contractor, all three working together to think about design and building a school.

00:22:27.405 –> 00:22:30.175
Um, if one of the legs falls, the stool falls over.

00:22:30.185 –> 00:22:30.215
True.

00:22:30.375 –> 00:22:32.055
And so all three are very important.

00:22:32.325 –> 00:22:36.985
Um, but as far as educators and architects, we have the same goal in mind.

00:22:36.985 –> 00:22:48.299
We wanna make sure that students are safe, students can learn, teachers can teach to the best of their abilities in a space that, is welcoming, feels good, flexible furniture.

00:22:48.309 –> 00:22:55.179
Everything that we talk about in school design, um, we all have the same goal, um, and we gotta get on the same page together.

00:22:55.599 –> 00:22:59.789
Uh, we’re not in it, um, at least at MA Plus, we’re not in it for awards.

00:22:59.829 –> 00:23:04.819
We are there to make sure that the end design meets the needs of the end user.

00:23:05.169 –> 00:23:05.199
Yes.

00:23:05.199 –> 00:23:06.089
And I think that’s important.

00:23:07.417 –> 00:23:19.617
Dr. Brian McCraw: walk us through, um, what were your, your thoughts on that session about the importance of, of not trading off safety, um, i- in, in lieu of, of not having the welcoming piece as well?

00:23:20.747 –> 00:23:35.477
Gary Armbruster: You know, school design, you gotta think of it in, in so many different ways where we want safety and security, and if you ask, uh, sometimes
a police officer, um, they’re gonna want, um, it to look, I don’t wanna say more like a prison, but it- they’re not gonna be thinking about welcoming.

00:23:35.487 –> 00:23:40.627
They’re not gonna be thinking about how a community member views the school from the outside.

00:23:40.627 –> 00:23:43.807
They’re wanna, wanting to make sure that, uh, the students are safe.

00:23:43.807 –> 00:23:48.657
So from an architect’s standpoint, I wanna walk in, and I wanna immediately feel welcome.

00:23:49.067 –> 00:23:52.207
I wanna see where I’m at with signage.

00:23:52.267 –> 00:23:58.587
I wanna see some history of the school, and all that can be done in the what we’re gonna call a secure entry vestibule.

00:23:58.587 –> 00:24:03.247
And I think in our Buc-ee session, they mentioned a community welcoming-

00:24:03.337 –> 00:24:03.767
Dr. Brian McCraw: Yes

00:24:03.857 –> 00:24:05.647
… Gary Armbruster: a vestibule or something like that.

00:24:05.687 –> 00:24:09.047
Changing the name just alone makes you feel welcome.

00:24:09.217 –> 00:24:09.897
Dr. Brian McCraw: It’s a reframe.

00:24:10.277 –> 00:24:10.437
Gary Armbruster: Yeah.

00:24:10.437 –> 00:24:19.517
It’s a reframe of, of, yeah, I’m going to the school, and yeah, I know I’m probably in a safe and secure vestibule to make sure that I’m cool being here, and I’m supposed to be here.

00:24:19.877 –> 00:24:23.517
But at the same time, I can look around and go, “Okay, I, I can see the school colors.

00:24:23.517 –> 00:24:24.417
I can feel welcome.

00:24:24.417 –> 00:24:25.197
I see graphics.

00:24:25.197 –> 00:24:29.507
I see history,” and, and, and all that’s important.

00:24:30.462 –> 00:24:39.612
Dr. Brian McCraw: What process do you guys use to actually include- Yeah … I guess, the, the learning community in your design process and implementation of what you’re trying to do for a district?

00:24:39.902 –> 00:24:40.112
Cody Boyd: Yeah.

00:24:40.242 –> 00:24:41.662
Um, it’s nothing groundbreaking.

00:24:41.742 –> 00:24:52.142
It’s, uh, really communicating with the stakeholders and seeing how they want us to involve, um, either the staff or the community.

00:24:52.352 –> 00:24:54.992
And a lot of times we do some planning exercises.

00:24:55.002 –> 00:24:55.832
They’re very simple.

00:24:56.172 –> 00:25:04.812
Uh, some can be planning about programming and finding out what’s valuable to the teachers, what works in their current facilities, what doesn’t work in their, uh, current facilities.

00:25:05.333 –> 00:25:12.553
we have these exercises where we bring in community members, and we have, like, these pin-ups and charrettes where we discuss just different topics.

00:25:12.553 –> 00:25:20.453
‘Cause as a parent, you know, you have a, a certain perspective that as an educator you may not have, or vice versa, right?

00:25:20.493 –> 00:25:21.763
They, everyone has their own priorities.

00:25:21.763 –> 00:25:24.033
And so it’s basically these series of exercises.

00:25:24.433 –> 00:25:26.523
Um, and it could be pin-ups, they can be sketches.

00:25:26.523 –> 00:25:31.089
They can be looking at, pictures or videos or going on an industry tour.

00:25:31.379 –> 00:25:32.409
That’s a great way, right?

00:25:32.409 –> 00:25:38.109
‘Cause then you see how other school districts or how other people are- Mm-hmm … implementing spaces.

00:25:38.359 –> 00:25:41.449
And, like, and people go, “Oh, that’s a great idea,” or, “Oh, you know what?

00:25:41.469 –> 00:25:47.789
That’s really cool looking.” But, you know, at school dist- district X, I don’t really see how we would use that space.

00:25:47.859 –> 00:25:47.889
Mm-hmm.

00:25:47.899 –> 00:25:49.179
So I don’t wanna make that a priority.

00:25:49.513 –> 00:25:50.543
so those are just some of the tools.

00:25:50.793 –> 00:25:54.263
You know, getting in a room together, spending hours together talking about it.

00:25:54.653 –> 00:25:55.593
Writing everything down.

00:25:55.683 –> 00:25:55.793
Right.

00:25:55.793 –> 00:25:58.223
Try to organize it, and then try to prioritize it.

00:25:59.302 –> 00:26:03.900
Nick Marmolejo: how much time do you need to know whether or not a school is great?

00:26:04.905 –> 00:26:09.385
Brad Hunt: You know, sometimes you can tell just the moment you walk through the doors.

00:26:09.385 –> 00:26:14.405
You, you know you’re in a really good school, a great school almost immediately.

00:26:14.645 –> 00:26:20.775
You can feel it, the vibe, how are you welcomed or not welcomed by the front, uh, staff.

00:26:20.815 –> 00:26:22.945
What is the walk-up curb appeal?

00:26:22.975 –> 00:26:23.045
Yes.

00:26:23.245 –> 00:26:24.705
Is it warm and inviting?

00:26:24.705 –> 00:26:24.833
Yes.

00:26:24.833 –> 00:26:31.535
Is it… You know, you want it to be safe, and you want it to be, uh, one where people feel confident in, in leaving their children.

00:26:31.755 –> 00:26:31.805
Yep.

00:26:31.835 –> 00:26:33.915
But you also want it to be welcoming.

00:26:33.915 –> 00:26:35.875
You want it to be warm and inviting.

00:26:35.885 –> 00:26:41.285
You want it to be one that’s full of, of love and laughter and learning and fun.

00:26:41.285 –> 00:26:45.825
And so I think you can pretty much know that almost right away.

00:26:45.845 –> 00:26:47.735
And I’ve worked in old schools.

00:26:47.735 –> 00:26:49.885
I’ve worked in newer schools.

00:26:49.925 –> 00:26:53.085
One of the best schools I ever worked in- Mm-hmm

00:26:53.095 –> 00:26:57.035
was probably one of the oldest schools, uh, in the district.

00:26:57.445 –> 00:27:01.195
But it didn’t matter- Mm-hmm … what the, uh, structure looked like.

00:27:01.195 –> 00:27:02.875
It was really what was on the inside.

00:27:02.875 –> 00:27:10.295
And we had an amazing principal who hired great people who loved kids and loved being around kids, and so you knew.

00:27:10.355 –> 00:27:12.165
You knew right when you walked through those doors- Right

00:27:12.175 –> 00:27:13.645
“Hey, this is a great place.

00:27:13.665 –> 00:27:16.105
This is a school where I wanna drop off my child.

00:27:16.105 –> 00:27:18.395
This is a school as a child where I wanna learn.

00:27:18.865 –> 00:27:22.995
This is a school as an educator or staff member where I wanna work and teach.”

00:27:23.140 –> 00:27:33.170
Dr. Brian McCraw: What is one big idea or trend in school design that you guys are seeing right now that’s really overused or misunderstood?

00:27:33.857 –> 00:27:35.467
Cody Boyd: What people call, like, the learning stairs, right?

00:27:35.517 –> 00:27:36.867
These open staircases.

00:27:37.257 –> 00:27:37.667
Right.

00:27:37.960 –> 00:27:38.960
and let’s just call it what it is.

00:27:38.960 –> 00:27:38.980
Right.

00:27:38.980 –> 00:27:49.760
Like, people want… They, they call it a learning stair because they don’t wanna implement anything into a facility that does not drive results for their student- Right … and for their staff, and I understand that.

00:27:50.630 –> 00:27:51.680
But what are those metrics?

00:27:52.113 –> 00:27:53.933
social spaces are great.

00:27:54.253 –> 00:27:55.733
Like, we need social spaces.

00:27:55.733 –> 00:27:56.783
Kids need social spaces.

00:27:56.783 –> 00:27:57.723
It’s how they grow.

00:27:58.093 –> 00:27:59.233
That’s how they learn how to communicate.

00:27:59.243 –> 00:28:03.822
It’s how they learn how to control emotion, how to, be themselves, right?

00:28:03.862 –> 00:28:10.422
And these learning stairs, we call it that because it has a nice little term to it, learning stairs, but really they’re a social space, so let’s call it what it is.

00:28:10.452 –> 00:28:13.662
It’s a social space, and we wanna provide it ’cause it creates an open environment.

00:28:13.932 –> 00:28:16.452
It creates connection from multiple stories.

00:28:16.702 –> 00:28:16.722
Mm-hmm.

00:28:16.732 –> 00:28:17.332
And they’re great.

00:28:17.372 –> 00:28:18.422
But they get used a lot.

00:28:18.702 –> 00:28:22.432
Uh, they’re expensive, and I do promote them.

00:28:22.552 –> 00:28:24.142
I, I do think they are worthwhile.

00:28:25.176 –> 00:28:28.426
Easy Foster: Well, we heard about it in some of our, one of our superintendent’s panel this morning.

00:28:28.446 –> 00:28:28.786
Mm-hmm.

00:28:28.796 –> 00:28:31.146
One of the superintendents picked on learning stairs.

00:28:31.836 –> 00:28:32.196
Right?

00:28:32.316 –> 00:28:34.296
I mean, so they are, they are-

00:28:34.436 –> 00:28:35.746
Dr. Brian McCraw: Easy, you’re the third person today- Right

00:28:35.786 –> 00:28:36.456
that’s mentioned that.

00:28:36.926 –> 00:28:41.536
Easy Foster: Well, I mean, but what we haven’t talked about really is why they’re so difficult.

00:28:41.566 –> 00:28:43.076
Why do we need rules on them?

00:28:43.076 –> 00:28:48.816
Why do, I mean, and, and we see it in collaborative spaces and all other new innovative areas in our buildings.

00:28:48.896 –> 00:29:05.496
In the back of my head, I, I’ve seen how our campus is run and they operate, and I’ve been, there was a period in my career where I had to substitute
teach in order to remember why I have a job, and they’ve, they’ve since that requirement has, has gone away out of necessity more than anything else.

00:29:05.506 –> 00:29:05.756
Right.

00:29:06.052 –> 00:29:17.032
if you’ve been in a campus and try to figure out when is a student gonna go, or a group of students gonna go hang out on that learning stair, uh, or even in the collaboration zone and actually collaborate-

00:29:17.142 –> 00:29:17.872
Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm

00:29:17.882 –> 00:29:23.952
… Easy Foster: generally speaking unsupervised, um, wh- when, when does that happen during the school day, right?

00:29:23.952 –> 00:29:27.452
So we’re hyper-concerned with the number of minutes of education.

00:29:28.092 –> 00:29:31.792
So we schedule our, our bell schedules are not at, at the fives and 10s.

00:29:32.092 –> 00:29:32.562
They’re at seven- That’s

00:29:32.582 –> 00:29:32.832
Dr. Brian McCraw: right

00:29:33.012 –> 00:29:33.522
… Easy Foster: eight, 14.

00:29:33.522 –> 00:29:34.322
Mm-hmm.

00:29:34.392 –> 00:29:37.352
I mean, because they are worried about minute to minute- That’s right … operation of the day.

00:29:37.672 –> 00:29:37.902
Correct.

00:29:37.902 –> 00:29:40.832
So when do they have the time to get out and use those spaces effectively?

00:29:42.251 –> 00:29:43.561
Katie Becker: Spaces without natural light.

00:29:44.231 –> 00:29:54.431
I think, uh, everyone now recognizes the benefits of natural light in education, but it’s inevitable that we end up with those spaces anyways.

00:29:54.602 –> 00:30:03.022
and so whenever I walk into those spaces it does drive me crazy a little bit ’cause it’s like, okay, we can do this.

00:30:03.292 –> 00:30:04.622
Everyone’s trying for it.

00:30:04.632 –> 00:30:04.842
Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm.

00:30:04.922 –> 00:30:10.482
Katie Becker: But when we walk away without some natural light in key spaces, it, it does hurt my heart a little bit.

00:30:11.165 –> 00:30:19.055
Dr. Brian McCraw: What does a strong partnership between firms, design firms, A&D firms, and educational leaders, what does it look like?

00:30:19.425 –> 00:30:31.685
And, uh, why does that matter so much to have a good firm relationship between the people that are building, designing and building these buildings and the leaders that are making that purchase?

00:30:32.435 –> 00:30:36.995
Easy Foster: Well, I would know our, our leadership, uh, we deal directly with, with our design team.

00:30:36.995 –> 00:30:40.865
So our, our planning team, the folks that I have in my department- Mm-hmm

00:30:40.865 –> 00:30:46.839
that help plan and then execute the construction, we’re not education, educators for our training, right?

00:30:46.839 –> 00:30:46.849
Right.

00:30:46.849 –> 00:30:48.949
So I’m a contractor, I grew up in construction.

00:30:48.999 –> 00:30:49.309
Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm.

00:30:49.579 –> 00:30:55.849
Easy Foster: Uh, I know how we have a planner on our team who grew up in architecture, but in, in user research and, and design.

00:30:55.929 –> 00:30:56.149
Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm.

00:30:56.489 –> 00:31:01.549
Easy Foster: And then I’ve got a team of, of folks that manage our work that are essentially contractor based.

00:31:01.549 –> 00:31:05.819
So when you get it from design to construction, our team is effective.

00:31:06.279 –> 00:31:10.749
But to get those designs in place, none of us have taught in the classroom.

00:31:11.179 –> 00:31:14.369
So we, we need to lean on the folks that have taught in the classroom.

00:31:14.369 –> 00:31:14.849
Mm-hmm.

00:31:14.849 –> 00:31:23.189
And that starts with the leadership, and then we work our way down into the, the teachers that can think beyond their own classroom into what would be a better- Randomly select

00:31:23.189 –> 00:31:27.219
better global fit for some of the ideas or some of the, the methods they wanna employ.

00:31:27.239 –> 00:31:27.549
Dr. Brian McCraw: I got

00:31:27.549 –> 00:31:27.679
Easy Foster: you.

00:31:27.759 –> 00:31:30.169
I mean, so it’s a, it’s a constant conversation.

00:31:30.169 –> 00:31:35.589
We meet with our, or my planning team meets with our assistant superintendents of curriculum every week.

00:31:35.589 –> 00:31:36.169
Wow.

00:31:36.169 –> 00:31:39.309
Uh, I meet with the superintendent of the schools every week.

00:31:39.859 –> 00:31:45.509
Uh, we’re constantly in front of our board members talking to them, um, because we’ve gotta get a pulse on what the community says too.

00:31:45.799 –> 00:31:46.039
Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm.

00:31:46.049 –> 00:31:46.289
Easy Foster: Right?

00:31:46.289 –> 00:31:57.119
So it’s not just about what we think is best or what the teachers think is best, or even what the students want in their classrooms, but what does the community who is supporting and paying for it ultimately want and desire?

00:31:57.119 –> 00:31:57.189
Of course.

00:31:57.199 –> 00:32:12.659
So it’s part of our, as we’re coming through and around through our plans- Mm … and with the new superintendent and a relatively new board in place,
one of the tasks that, that is ahead of us that is important, we haven’t yet kicked it off, is a long range, uh, like you call it a design guideline.

00:32:12.659 –> 00:32:14.619
What does the community really expect?

00:32:14.649 –> 00:32:18.549
‘Cause we’ve been building our buildings the way we’ve been building them for about- Right … 25 years.

00:32:18.589 –> 00:32:18.929
Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm.

00:32:19.279 –> 00:32:22.149
Easy Foster: I mean, so it’s, it’s been, it’s been a good run.

00:32:22.149 –> 00:32:23.409
They’ve been solid and successful.

00:32:23.409 –> 00:32:29.119
But there’s, every once in a while, you’ve, you hear people talk about too pretty or too expensive or…

00:32:29.549 –> 00:32:32.649
And I, I spend a lot of my time educating the public on it.

00:32:32.699 –> 00:32:39.449
It’s not, it looks expensive, but we’re trying to be durable, affordable, and build a building that’ll last 50 years.

00:32:39.459 –> 00:32:39.809
Of course.

00:32:40.319 –> 00:32:45.359
Uh, and so we’re trying to… We wanna meet with the whole leadership team and put some bumpers on that conversation.

00:32:45.369 –> 00:32:45.379
Mm.

00:32:45.419 –> 00:32:49.717
‘Cause it may we wanna build a box to teach kids, but we don’t want it to be a box.

00:32:49.727 –> 00:32:49.747
Mm-hmm.

00:32:49.747 –> 00:32:52.377
We, or it may not need to be the square shape of a box.

00:32:52.377 –> 00:32:53.307
It might be something else.

00:32:53.367 –> 00:32:53.547
Right.

00:32:53.777 –> 00:33:00.917
But they don’t often get to sit and think about that, so it’s our job to challenge them to think about it so that we put those plans in place.

00:33:00.927 –> 00:33:01.397
Mm-hmm.

00:33:01.407 –> 00:33:07.557
All with the end, you know, the educational outcome and the stewardship of the taxpayer dollars, right, all at once.

00:33:08.550 –> 00:33:15.606
Dr. Brian McCraw: When you walk into a school building, whether it’s a new, brand-new building or an older building, how can you tell if the school is thriving-

00:33:15.786 –> 00:33:16.086
Sloan McLain: Hmm

00:33:16.116 –> 00:33:18.536
Dr. Brian McCraw: or if it’s just stagnant or even failing?

00:33:19.136 –> 00:33:21.086
What do you, what do you see as soon as you walk in?

00:33:21.256 –> 00:33:37.082
Sloan McLain: What I look for is every kid talking and every kid participating all the time throughout the day, and I mean that, um, as- So deeply because I think what happens sometimes is we have kids raising their hands to answer a question.

00:33:37.132 –> 00:33:46.932
We have the same five kids who are learning and teaching other kids and are pulled into positions of, you know, maybe teaching and, um, other, their peers in the classroom.

00:33:46.932 –> 00:33:55.912
But it n- it needs to be a, a, a climate and culture where it’s loud and it’s messy and- Yeah … every kid is standing up and talking.

00:33:55.912 –> 00:33:56.202
‘Cause, well, kids, kids are

00:33:56.202 –> 00:33:56.812
Dr. Brian McCraw: loud and messy.

00:33:56.862 –> 00:33:57.082
Sloan McLain: Yeah.

00:33:57.412 –> 00:33:58.162
Absolutely.

00:33:58.172 –> 00:33:58.892
Dr. Brian McCraw: Sometimes adults.

00:33:58.962 –> 00:33:59.092
Sloan McLain: Yeah.

00:33:59.092 –> 00:34:00.422
They, they can move around.

00:34:00.422 –> 00:34:00.582
Right.

00:34:00.582 –> 00:34:02.322
Kids are sitting in different ways on chairs.

00:34:02.422 –> 00:34:05.372
S- kids are, you know, on the floor.

00:34:05.402 –> 00:34:11.502
Kids are working in partners, and then suddenly they’re working in a small group, and they’re off, you know, figuring something out by themselves, and they’re coming back to a small group.

00:34:11.502 –> 00:34:13.502
There’s a lot of movement in the classroom.

00:34:13.992 –> 00:34:28.412
Um, it’s a lot of student-generated what’s gonna happen next- Mm-hmm … um, that follows the, the plan, the lesson plan, um, in a way, but the kids are dictating how this lesson’s gonna unfold.

00:34:28.700 –> 00:34:36.960
and you know that because kids are asking questions, and kids are taking risks, and kids are sharing ideas that they’re not sure if they’re gonna be right or wrong- Right

00:34:36.960 –> 00:34:38.610
but they have the support of their peers.

00:34:38.660 –> 00:34:38.780
Mm-hmm.

00:34:38.810 –> 00:34:48.941
And, um, and you can feel that kind of lean in to learning and trying something new and- Right … failing forward, as we say, um, with, with kids, you know, just walking classroom to classroom.

00:34:48.981 –> 00:34:59.271
It’s totally different when you walk into a school and all the kids are walking in that straight line with their hands behind their back
and the bubble in the mouth, and you get to the classrooms and they’re silent, and the kids are all crisscross applesauce on the- Mm-hmm

00:34:59.671 –> 00:35:03.041
on the carpet and watching the teacher, and the teacher’s going through the lesson point by point.

00:35:03.251 –> 00:35:04.791
That is absolutely not what I wanna see.

00:35:05.161 –> 00:35:08.131
That is what, how we taught, you know, back in the day.

00:35:08.131 –> 00:35:14.241
You know, five, 10 years ago maybe it was even okay, but now it is, um, you know, kids can Google that.

00:35:14.291 –> 00:35:16.421
They don’t need the sage on the stage-

00:35:16.639 –> 00:35:17.099
at all.

00:35:17.099 –> 00:35:19.299
I mean, they haven’t for a long time, but really now they don’t.

00:35:20.249 –> 00:35:26.599
Dr. Brian McCraw: What is something that students experience every day in a school building that most adults have no idea what’s happening?

00:35:27.129 –> 00:35:29.589
Katie Becker: I think they’re starting to understand.

00:35:29.599 –> 00:35:41.829
This conversation’s grown, but sensory issues and just the idea… For so long students that were, quote-unquote, struggling were perceived as special education- That’s right … needs, right?

00:35:41.839 –> 00:35:42.159
Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm.

00:35:42.219 –> 00:35:43.459
Katie Becker: Um, needing IEPs.

00:35:43.519 –> 00:35:43.669
They

00:35:43.679 –> 00:35:44.849
Dr. Brian McCraw: immediately got a label.

00:35:45.029 –> 00:35:45.419
Katie Becker: Exactly.

00:35:45.449 –> 00:35:46.139
Dr. Brian McCraw: They got a meeting.

00:35:46.819 –> 00:35:54.279
They got all this extra, uh, plans in place, whether it be an IEP or a 504 plan or whatever it may be, because people couldn’t figure out what was wrong.

00:35:54.359 –> 00:35:54.699
Katie Becker: Right.

00:35:55.149 –> 00:35:55.169
Yeah.

00:35:55.229 –> 00:36:03.129
And what we’re seeing now, and as a society we’re learning more about, is that even, again, quote-unquote, mainstream students might need a fidget.

00:36:03.499 –> 00:36:09.899
And whether that’s a, a fidgety chair or just a physical fidget that they can move their hands with- That’s right … it can make all the difference.

00:36:10.559 –> 00:36:17.349
And I think it’s just taking us a little while to really grasp how small some of those interventions can be.

00:36:18.070 –> 00:36:18.650
Olivia Graf: All right.

00:36:18.680 –> 00:36:28.400
The card says, “If you could give every school building one magical superpower, what would it be? For example, self-cleaning cafeterias.”

00:36:29.320 –> 00:36:31.750
Dr. Brian McCraw: So one magical superpower.

00:36:31.820 –> 00:36:32.540
Olivia Graf: One superpower.

00:36:33.070 –> 00:36:35.220
Every school building a superpower.

00:36:35.350 –> 00:36:40.850
Dr. Brian McCraw: So you’re gonna make your school building a member of The Avengers from the Marvel Universe.

00:36:41.000 –> 00:36:42.030
So what do you think, Olivia?

00:36:44.061 –> 00:36:49.471
Olivia Graf: I feel like, okay, this might not be a superpower, but I’m a huge Trekkie, so I’m gonna say- Really?

00:36:49.631 –> 00:36:50.781
… a transporter.

00:36:51.184 –> 00:36:54.914
uh, So not necessarily that you would transport within the campus, right?

00:36:54.954 –> 00:37:02.404
But that, um, because I do think there’s value in that exploration and bumping into people- Yeah, yeah, yeah … and that kind of interaction, right?

00:37:02.404 –> 00:37:02.424
Yeah.

00:37:02.594 –> 00:37:14.535
But that you could, transport to, somewhere in the community, a community business, and learn for n- for, you know, 30 minutes or 45 minutes or an hour, whatever-

00:37:14.545 –> 00:37:14.905
Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm

00:37:14.975 –> 00:37:26.545
Olivia Graf: about that kind of, you know, working or being at a restaurant or, um, being in an artist studio or maybe there’s an opportunity to go to another school and learn from their peers.

00:37:26.545 –> 00:37:31.385
And, um, you could share a lot more resources as a district that way- Hmm … too.

00:37:31.655 –> 00:37:45.265
So you could, you know, share, have a really fantastic STEM facility or with biomedical engineering, and you could have another place that was just this fantastic outdoor nature preserve, and everyone would share in those resources.

00:37:45.325 –> 00:37:45.535
Mm-hmm.

00:37:45.625 –> 00:37:59.525
And because the logistics are simple, right, ’cause you just press that button and you’re, you’re transported away, um, it would allow, you know, it would take away some of the barriers to being able to share resources.

00:37:59.525 –> 00:37:59.535
Hmm.

00:37:59.535 –> 00:37:59.965
So I don’t know.

00:38:00.686 –> 00:38:00.996
Katie Becker: Uh,

00:38:01.026 –> 00:38:07.906
when someone says, “We just want something simple,” what does that phrase usually turn into about six meetings later?

00:38:08.445 –> 00:38:08.815
Dr. Brian McCraw: Fantastic.

00:38:08.815 –> 00:38:09.405
It is, it’s a great question.

00:38:09.485 –> 00:38:14.485
Tell us what you think about that, ’cause we know that you’ve encountered that- Yes … and you will continue to encounter that.

00:38:14.485 –> 00:38:14.644
Yeah.

00:38:14.644 –> 00:38:14.963
Okay, excellent.

00:38:14.963 –> 00:38:15.440
But go ahead.

00:38:15.440 –> 00:38:15.758
All right.

00:38:15.758 –> 00:38:15.918
We’ll

00:38:15.918 –> 00:38:16.395
Katie Becker: see you later.

00:38:16.395 –> 00:38:23.065
I think what that turns into is just a constant balance and a check-in, right?

00:38:23.145 –> 00:38:37.115
It’s the, “This is what you said you wanted on day one. This is what you said day 15. Where do you, where does that balance exist now on day 30?” Uh, and I think it’s o- keeping those lines of communications open-

00:38:37.125 –> 00:38:37.435
Dr. Brian McCraw: Mm-hmm

00:38:37.665 –> 00:38:47.227
… Katie Becker: and continuing to understand how continuous information that they’re getting, ’cause a lot of people are drinking under a fire hose during this process.

00:38:47.287 –> 00:38:47.507
Yeah.

00:38:47.767 –> 00:38:52.543
And it’s, they’re gonna shift and they’re going to, understand more the longer they get into it.

00:38:52.903 –> 00:38:54.393
And so it’s just that continuous check-in.

00:38:54.393 –> 00:38:55.653
Like, are we still on the right path?

00:38:56.747 –> 00:39:00.267
Thanks for joining us as we took the Better Learning Podcast on the road.

00:39:00.507 –> 00:39:07.817
We hope these conversations gave you new ideas, fresh perspectives, and a glimpse into the incredible work happening in learning environments across the country.

00:39:08.467 –> 00:39:14.977
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to like, subscribe, and leave us a comment sharing your favorite insight or where you’d like to see us record next time.

00:39:15.437 –> 00:39:21.137
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00:39:21.717 –> 00:39:24.777
Thanks for being a part of the Better Learning community, and we’ll see you next time.