Read Transcript:

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Mark Barga: Welcome, everybody to the Better Learning podcast.

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This is Mark Barga, and I am here with David Schrader.

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David, thank you for joining me today.

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David Schrader: My pleasure.

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Thanks for having me.

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Mark Barga: David, as a person who’s seen it all in design and architecture, do me a favor, just give our audience a little bit of your background.

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Tell us how you got into not just designing buildings, but designing schools and other buildings for public use and community engagement.

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Okay.

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David Schrader: Okay.

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Well, maybe it goes back all the way.

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I am one of those kids who was, uh, little bit of art, but you know, liked to invent, played with all the toys that actually were put together, toys and built all kinds of things because I always wanted to invent.

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And I think in the end that’s really really what architecture is.

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You’re inventing new things each time.

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Everything’s a prototype, you know, everything’s a one off.

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So it’s kind of interesting that you get into that.

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Found an architecture school that I thought was really good for me and it did end up being very good and got out during a very, very challenging time.

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It was 1991, uh, challenging time to try to get into the field of architecture.

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But I was one of the fortunate ones who got a job and I ended up with a job of all things for a firm that did correctional work because that was a firm that at that time had work to do, whereas many of the others didn’t.

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And so I started with them for a very short time.

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Worked in the office that did the correctional work, found out about an office in the Philadelphia area, which was one of my places of interest to live.

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And, uh.

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Coincidentally at the same time got into University of Pennsylvania for grad school.

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And, that led to living in the area and really developing a life here.

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But the other part of that is, uh, the firm that was here in the Philadelphia area was run by a guy named Ed Kirk.

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And folks who were, familiar with at least the Association for Learning Environments when it was Council of Educational Facility Planners, uh, would know Ed because he was a big part of the Northeast region.

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And then ultimately he, uh, had tentacles out to every part of the country as part of A4LE….. And together.

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So he actually grew to be my mentor.

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Um, Um, interestingly, I was able to take over his office a short time after, uh, he basically finished his career running offices and went off and consulted and was a big part of CEFPI at that time.

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But he’s the reason that I got into academic design.

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Um, probably a little bit of family, um, drive as well.

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I, my father was in higher education.

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My mother was a second grade teacher, so I’m sure there’s an affinity developed as a result of being, you know, a kid of educators to some extent.

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all of those things brought me into, The educational design of things and worked for that off that company, ran that office for a number of years and we really developed a great, uh, clientele of K–12 work.

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So, I’ve always called K 12, really academic design.

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Uh, for us, it, I don’t think there’s a beginning and an end to, uh, academics.

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And so yes, there’s a span of K–12, but we’ve done higher ed, we’ve done pre-K, we’ve done all kinds of things related to education and the learning environment.

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So those are all really critical to me.

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We were very fortunate in that as we worked through that, we ended up with a series of clients in this region who weren’t necessarily just thinking about, and you certainly know the term, the old cells and bells or egg crate, you know, design.

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They were thinking more about how academics are perceived and how they might be approached in the next generation.

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And so I just happened to be fortunate enough to work with a couple at the beginning who were thinking differently about how you approach education and how the, the facility or how
the environment itself is structured around it, and did a couple of projects like that and slowly we, uh, began to have some notoriety in trying to really tie the academic end with.

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Whatever the facility or environment end was, and so we’ve, we’ve been able to work through some pretty transformative, uh, concepts over time.

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Probably though the, the bigger driver and the thing that really gave us a vocabulary to work from was certainly, uh, a really heavy involvement with Association for Learning, learning environment.

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So that has been the stimulus behind and kind of the vocabulary setter for all of the different approaches to design that in planning that we didn’t previously know about.

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So that’s, that’s been the stimulus, that’s how we got into how I got into academic design.

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And, uh, why at least the office that we have around us here is, is built around that.

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Mark Barga: Fascinating.

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And of course it’s impossible not to notice the juxtaposition of starting with, in, you know, correctional facilities.

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No.

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You know, and, and ending with students at the center of, you know, your design mind.

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I mean, that’s a fascinating,

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I’ll

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David Schrader: I’ll, tell you one more story about that because you bring that up.

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I, right after college, I went across the country with a couple fraternity brothers.

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We did that drive across the country and I knew about the job that I was getting and I was, believe me, I was very grateful to have a job and, uh, but I didn’t get excited about designing correctional facilities.

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And my buddy was a structural engineer from the Penn State Structural Engineering, or architectural engineering, program.

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And as we’re in San Francisco, he gets a call that he’s also got a job now.

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And so he’s all excited about his job.

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told me

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his salary, which was quite a bit more than the architectural salary, but that’s another story.

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And we go to, uh, get on the boat to go across to Alcatraz and I’m walking around Alcatraz with my.

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Shoulders drooping in my, you know, thought process ggoing downhill because I realized how frustrated I am and I let them know my
fraternity brothers how frustrated I was that correctional design or designing something for people to not like was what I was gonna do.

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So really fortunate, you know, within a year or two to be able to move into something that people celebrate when they get to walk around.

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A really great facility.

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Mark Barga: Yeah.

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And where they’re, the

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intent is really to help humans flourish, you know?

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And that’s the kind of work that you do.

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I mean, I’m curious, you use the word transformationAll right.?

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Uh, with some of the school partnerships that you’ve developed over the years and many of the projects that you’ve done, what are some of the.

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What you would describe as maybe key indicators that a district or a prospective client is they’re ready for a building to be more than just a new building.

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They want to use it as a catalyst for real, for a change in trajectory, right, to reshape their narrative, to expand what’s possible.

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What are some of the things that come to mind when you start those conversations or when you’ve started those projects that make those different?

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David Schrader: Yeah.

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Well,

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hoI I think two things really come to mindd

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from that

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uh, approach to these things.

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One certainly is they, they start by talking about the learner and the learning process.

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So it’s not a discussion initially about I’m going to build a school for X dollars in an x, y, Z timeframe.

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That’s, that’s, that’s critically important to these projects for sure.

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But when they do start the conversation with the learner and the learning process.

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And they really kind of articulate a vision for the future, That’s when you know that you are hooked into something very interesting, so that’s number one.

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And number two for us, I think, is hearing that there is an interest in involving others, whether it be community, the academic community itself.

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You know, getting down to teachers and learners and all of those folks, when we hear that those folks are going to be involved in the process, I think then you really know you’ve got something that could lead to a, a transformative project.

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For sure.

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Mark Barga: And those folks select you, for example, to sort of be their guide, right?

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And you establish a partnership with them and you guys go on the journey together.

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I’m curious if you could talk a little bit more about what this type of deep, robust partnership between district and designer really looks like.

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What does a great partnership look like to you?

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David Schrader: Yeah.

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Well that, that was actually, well put the way you just structured that question, so and by the way, that’s not us only.

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Hopefully it’s anybody who’s doing the kind of things that we do, the project types that we do.

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I, I hope that that’s, and I

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I

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see many many in our

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audience

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for

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sure.

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Certainly.

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I mean, all, all of our colleagues are very good at this.

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So it’s, this doesn’t fall on us, uh, alone.

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I think it

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does go back to when, when you do see them engaging with community and, and the community is going to be part of the process, that that’s just a giant part of this whole thing.

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when

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they tell you that, it’s almost like a welcome to the team.

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when you’re into a situation where you’ve got a true partnership going.

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we always try to, sometimes we, we don’t have to interview for a project and in those cases that’s a, a wonderful experience ’cause they are reaching out for you and your team, which is important.

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In those cases, you know, you already know that you’re stepping aboard something that’s gonna be a great cruise ship that hopefully will lead to a great solution.

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But when you are interviewing, we do try to turn the questions around a little bit and, and try to really poke at the owner to see if we’re gonna find that they’re partners as well and they’re interested in a true partnership.

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Um, like you said, these partnerships are, gosh.

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Sometimes in, in our state, you have to develop a feasibility study before it even leads to whatever the master planning is for the district, which then finally will lead to the various projects that you do.

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And many times you’re brought aboard for that.

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Uh, and when you’re involved from study on, I mean, I have a client that, uh, we started with back in, it must be 2007, so it’s been ongoing projects with that particular client since then.

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And that’s a journey.

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So maybe one project takes five years, but think about, you know, that’s 19 years worth of projects for a client.

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That’s a true partnership.

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Mark Barga: T here’s a lot of nuance and a lot of depth and a lot of, all of the contours of those districts.

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The community dynamics, the politics, the vision of political leadership, like, I mean, you, you really establish a sophisticated understanding of a client relationship over time.

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And so certainly that’s reflected in the work.

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I mean, that’s, that, that makes sense.

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David Schrader: Well, that’s giving us a little more credit than it’s probably due.

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But, it is true that especially when you’re engaged for quite a while, you may go through multiple iterations of a board.

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You might go through multiple iterations of a, um, administration.

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And so we do try very hard to learn what it is that that is the basis of that community so that hopefully whatever we’re building becomes central to that community, because that’s what these buildings are.

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Mark Barga: So you’ve spent three decades in architecture, right?

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But you’ve drawn your inspiration from many places, right?

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You’ve drawn your inspiration from across many domains of design and architecture, conversations and experiences that you’ve accumulated.

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in your travels, what can k–12 education or academic education, as you may say, or academic design rather?

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Pardon me.

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What can they learn from other sectors that are also doing meaningful, creative, imaginative work?

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David Schrader: Yeah, take it from any angle.

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I think let’s talk about learning for a second.

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If you really think about learning, learning styles and the spaces that you build around them, those, strangely and uniquely because the money is there, begin in industry, right?

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And so if, if you watch how some of the really thoughtful companies are building the environments around the kinds of workflow, the kinds of creative processes that they want.

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Um, and I won’t name any of the companies, but you can all pick ’em.

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They, those work environments are all very dynamic, very unique, uh, very flexible and adaptable, and they’re built with the latest thought process in mind.

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And if you really follow that line and hit higher education, you’ll see.

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The think tanks in higher education start with that.

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It was dripping right down into the traditional collegiate spaces for some of those areas, those, uh, universities and higher education institutions, and then certainly into the amenity spaces and all of those.

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And by the way, that’s what higher ed is building for.

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They’re building the amenities to attract the students to eventually be attracted to the industry that will have the same kinds of things if they’re lucky enough.

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We kind of watch that drip down into secondary education and, uh, strangely for probably you and me, we want to see that start in primary and pre-K because ultimately that has to lift with the learner as the learner goes through, uh, their learning process.

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I think kind of a collateral, because you brought it up, is civic and community type work.

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If you really look at the, the well-established civic and community spaces, that is a great connection of indoor outdoor.

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Those of us who, like any kind of civic space, really appreciate most, um, a great outdoor space leading to a really thoughtful and connected indoor space.

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And those are the kinds of things, whether it’s a museum, I mean, let’s look at our nation’s capital and some of those great facilities.

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Look at any great historic town where you’ve got a town green and then you’ve got all of the collection of spaces around it.

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That’s a school that literally is what a school is.

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The town green with all of the spaces around it, uh, all in one.

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So you can kind of draw from that, from the side.

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And you put all these pieces together and think about it a little bit with some of the probably some of the unique, approaches that we’ve been seeing both internationally.

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I like to look at the Pacific Northwest.

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I think they’re still leading the way to some extent in a lot of this, and especially through A4LE.

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It’s been really great to be able to follow what’s going on in those regions, but all of those people are thinking about both how industry feeds down to higher ed feeds down to, uh, PK–12.

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And I think the really thoughtful ones are thinking about how the learning environment draws from these great civic spaces that we see as well.

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So always keeping in mind, um, the environment and, uh, how important it is for the learner to be attached to the environment.

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Mark Barga: You mentioned the word flexibility, right?

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Which is of course a buzzword, right?

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And we hear this all the time in school design, right?

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We want flexible, we want flexibility, we want adaptable.

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Right?

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If you don’t mind, share a little bit more about some of the trends that you’ve seen.

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in your time designing, you know, academic spaces, you know, what are some of the, what are some of the developments or the shifts that you’ve seen over time that
really actually excite you, that kind of reaffirm, you know, your sense that, you know what the design community really is aligning with better outcomes for kids?

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David Schrader: I, I raced through the first 15 or 20 years because I don’t think that, at least the region that I have grown up in designing, uh, was tremendously forward thinking at that time.

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Um, the last 20 years I feel much better about.

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And I think that, the folks that I see doing what we do in our region are really doing some beautiful, incredible things.

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So, let’s talk about physical environment for a second.

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So I think one of the great approaches right now in that I think will be really terrific for the future, certainly is people thinking about these buildings as warehouses that you’re building temporary enclosures in for the meantime.

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And I, I, I hate to differentiate from the external environment and the internal, because we really want those to, to feed one another in a, in a really good.

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Uh, academic institution, but when you’re building a relatively simple structural bay that you can modify drywall and walls within to
change the configuration of a space within a reasonable amount of time, that’s the flexibility that we’re looking for in the future.

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If you think about the buildings that were built in the fifties and sixties that were tearing them down.

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down.

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Um, many masonry bearing structures, things that are very difficult to adapt and adopt.

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all of those terrific glazed block colors that everybody hates now, that are not flexible and adaptable.

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And so you’re stuck with these corridors.

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So when you build today, you’re, you’re trying to think about that flexibility in the future, construction and adaptability of the project.

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Second thing that’s huge today and is another, item that in the last 20 years has developed itself significantly is furniture.

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So between those two pieces, those two allow you to create the most flexible and, uh, adaptable spaces that were not available in the past.

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If you think about the furniture that we were building around, we were building around the same thing for a hundred years, if not more.

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That was a really constraining element for educators to try to work through.

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So, those are some items, I think, think don’t like to use the word trends, but those are, those are items that I think are gonna help us quite a bit with, uh, being able to be adaptable and flexible in the future.

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Other things that I’m seeing that give me great hope, when people started to think certainly about different educational pedagogies, that’s important.

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Uh, but even more when people started tying things like brain research and cognitive thought process and all of those pieces to space and to understand that we are all different.

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We all learn differently.

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Not only adapting different sizes and types of spaces or environments or external spaces or whatever, but started to really think about that and how the learner is really, uh, an individual with all of those different comprehensive needs.

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And when, when people started talking about that, it gave me great hope.

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Certainly.

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Uh, and I’m not a researcher, but I certainly want to see the research.

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And so that’s been a big part.

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And if you follow, and you certainly do, but, and certainly people who would are listening to this, A4LE for instance, and most of the, the other
groups who are following what A4LE does, uh, have been focusing on that in the last five or 10 years, and we know that that’s the next step.

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We just have to understand, I think we’re in a time of experimentation for learning environments for the moment.

00:19:29.730 –> 00:19:43.620
And I think a little bit more time melding the research, which is underway and the end result I think is gonna result in some terrific spaces, already has it, it just needs even more development.

00:19:48.592 –> 00:19:53.332
You know, when we work with schools at K12 it’s not just about furniture design, it’s about impact.

00:19:53.572 –> 00:19:57.712
Our radically student-centered approach puts students at the center of every decision.

00:19:58.072 –> 00:20:04.342
From that first conversation to the final walkthrough, we’re focused on creating spaces that actually work for the kids.

00:20:04.762 –> 00:20:06.112
Teachers and the community.

00:20:06.412 –> 00:20:11.692
So if you’re looking to do more than just check a box on your next project, let’s talk Visit k12.com.

00:20:11.692 –> 00:20:20.422
That’s K-A-Y-T-W-E-L-V-E.com and see how we’re helping schools transform learning one student at a time.

00:20:20.752 –> 00:20:24.832
Because at K12 it’s not just about projects and furniture, it’s about purpose.

00:20:30.449 –> 00:20:38.505
Mark Barga: There’s so many tensions in between the reality of educational practice and institutional life, right?

00:20:38.505 –> 00:20:50.655
On the school side, the emergent research that we know about physiology, about social connection, about acoustics and light and all the things you were referring to and alluding to, um, and ergonomic design and movement.

00:20:50.965 –> 00:20:57.295
So it does sometimes feel like sometimes the educators and architects may not speak the same language, right?

00:20:57.400 –> 00:21:11.620
I mean, how do you work to kind of bridge that gap as far as, you know, creating some common understanding and as you said, sort of language and framework to think about establishing goals?

00:21:12.040 –> 00:21:15.058
David Schrader: I guess you do have to go back to some of the researchers.

00:21:15.058 –> 00:21:20.158
You have to go back to some of the things that we’re seeing through, uh, the organizations that we’re all part of.

00:21:20.668 –> 00:21:24.438
Those are certainly, setting some context for us all to work within.

00:21:24.438 –> 00:21:31.998
Like we, we wouldn’t know some of this if we weren’t going and seeing these, the, going to these conferences and hearing some of these great presentations.

00:21:31.998 –> 00:21:34.428
For sure we wouldn’t know anything about this.

00:21:34.428 –> 00:21:38.988
There’s every inventor is a result of all the inventors before them, right?

00:21:39.078 –> 00:21:45.588
And so the best that you can do is to try to adapt and adopt from all those great things you hear.

00:21:45.588 –> 00:21:47.769
So, so that’s really important.

00:21:48.392 –> 00:21:50.442
How to link the educator.

00:21:50.452 –> 00:22:01.902
I think we quite often, we really have to rely on very thoughtful administrators who maybe have seen the light and know that there’s another step that could be taken.

00:22:02.114 –> 00:22:14.039
I sometimes feel that the educators, and, and you see the ones that are just amazing and have a whole other thought process versus the ones who are gonna go to work.

00:22:14.039 –> 00:22:23.799
It’s probably just like us in the design field, but are gonna go to work and do what they have to do to educate the student and then maybe do something similar the next year, and the next year.

00:22:24.599 –> 00:22:31.019
The ones who are very, very creative and the administrators who support those folks are the ones that we’re all gonna latch onto.

00:22:31.829 –> 00:22:38.009
And they may or may not be right with what they’re doing, but if they see results and if we see results, then they are.

00:22:38.009 –> 00:22:38.369
Right.

00:22:38.369 –> 00:22:41.099
So those are the ones that we like to connect with.

00:22:41.374 –> 00:22:44.364
Mark Barga: Well, passion is, in fact, passion is infectious.

00:22:44.374 –> 00:22:44.634
Right.

00:22:44.634 –> 00:22:48.124
And, and the educators you’re describing, I always think about them as.

00:22:48.499 –> 00:22:52.669
Um, early adopters, you know, these are folks who are, who are on board with design.

00:22:52.669 –> 00:22:53.989
They want transformation, right?

00:22:53.989 –> 00:23:01.369
So you think about a faculty group, um, I, I think about it as you have your 20% maybe who are just on fire for teaching.

00:23:01.429 –> 00:23:03.049
I mean, they’re on fire for it, right?

00:23:03.199 –> 00:23:03.259
Yeah.

00:23:03.349 –> 00:23:06.979
Then you, maybe you’re 20% at the other end of the spectrum, and maybe it’s less than that.

00:23:06.979 –> 00:23:11.914
Let’s say maybe it’s 10% who are just, you know, they’re not gonna change, right?

00:23:11.914 –> 00:23:14.434
And they’re gonna be high friction people, right?

00:23:14.434 –> 00:23:18.124
In the process of growth and development and moving into something new.

00:23:18.364 –> 00:23:24.124
But I really think that that middle constituency of educators are working hard.

00:23:24.484 –> 00:23:32.524
They need great leadership, they need support, and they need affirmation that it’s okay to experiment and make mistakes and try new things.

00:23:32.584 –> 00:23:34.144
And those are folks you can reach.

00:23:34.144 –> 00:23:41.704
And that’s, that’s how districts really build, I think a robust culture around new types of teaching, um, in my experience.

00:23:41.704 –> 00:23:44.359
So I think it, I think it’s absolutely on point.

00:23:44.359 –> 00:23:45.439
David Schrader: Well, that’s huge Mark.

00:23:45.439 –> 00:23:54.826
And I think you know that, that, thank you for saying 10% and hopefully it’s less, You, you can’t be an educator, I don’t think, without having a passion for what the next generation’s gonna do.

00:23:54.826 –> 00:23:56.836
I, I truly believe that.

00:23:56.866 –> 00:23:58.916
Again, second grade teacher, mother.

00:23:59.206 –> 00:24:01.816
She was always talking about the kids.

00:24:01.816 –> 00:24:05.935
They were really important to her to this day they’re, she still talks about her teaching days.

00:24:05.965 –> 00:24:08.425
So I think that’s really, uh, special.

00:24:08.680 –> 00:24:18.138
Mark Barga: And maybe it’s, it’s, maybe it’s worth noting that even in that 10%, it doesn’t mean, um, ineffective educator, it just means someone who’s unwilling to change, right?

00:24:18.138 –> 00:24:22.368
And so you could even have strong practitioners who are really experienced.

00:24:22.368 –> 00:24:32.205
I mean, I’ve worked in schools for 15 years and, you might find educators who are just, they are executing, they’re just not gonna grow, you know?

00:24:32.205 –> 00:24:33.765
So maybe that’s a distinction worth making.

00:24:33.855 –> 00:24:34.155
David Schrader: Yeah.

00:24:34.155 –> 00:24:35.695
That is, that is worth it.

00:24:35.875 –> 00:24:41.627
And by no means am I trying to cast any kind of negativity on that.

00:24:41.627 –> 00:24:49.607
It’s, it’s when you’re trying to figure out, when we’re all experimenting and trying to figure out what 21st century learning, that’s the wrong term.

00:24:49.607 –> 00:25:00.857
Even next generation learning is going to be, um, we, we are looking for the ones are progressive, and like anything else, we’re, we’re probably not looking for the bleeding edge.

00:25:00.857 –> 00:25:02.117
We’re looking for the cutting edge.

00:25:02.582 –> 00:25:08.702
If we see that they’re successful and the students are just totally invigorated, holy cow, that’s what we want to get.

00:25:08.702 –> 00:25:09.902
So that’s what we work towards.

00:25:09.992 –> 00:25:20.132
From a process standpoint, I think we are doing something similar, hopefully to what our colleagues do, and that is we really like to work through the workshop process.

00:25:20.372 –> 00:25:26.937
Have a couple great ones going on now that are continued month after month with those kinds of educators that we just spoke about.

00:25:27.752 –> 00:25:38.968
And those people have this passion to build these ed specs and build these thought processes and they are thinking about, in this case, it’s middle school that I’m thinking about.

00:25:39.165 –> 00:25:45.285
They have all kinds of ideas, and it’s almost, at this point in time, it’s almost like, okay, now where do we stop?

00:25:46.380 –> 00:25:50.940
Like, and, and what is it that we don’t do as part of this educational environment?

00:25:50.940 –> 00:25:59.895
So, those are the moments when you’re just totally thrilled and you know that you’ve started to connect with a, a broader spectrum of people and you can really work with them to come up with something unique.

00:25:59.925 –> 00:26:10.575
Mark Barga: It’s a, it’s a good problem to have, to have to rein folks in a little bit, you know, because we still have the pragmatic realities of running a building and the logistics that are necessary.

00:26:10.635 –> 00:26:16.905
But, um, the fact that you’re creating those opportunities with, with schools and giving teachers permission to dream.

00:26:17.265 –> 00:26:18.765
I think that’s what this is about.

00:26:19.035 –> 00:26:21.585
Um, and that’s, I think, is a hallmark of a great process.

00:26:21.832 –> 00:26:25.887
So actually, you know, to to to that point there, picture one of your projects, right?

00:26:25.887 –> 00:26:29.907
We walk into a building 20 years from now, right?

00:26:30.385 –> 00:26:33.565
You’re looking around, we walk through with the superintendent of the principal.

00:26:33.990 –> 00:26:43.650
What are you gonna look for that are gonna be the indicators for you that, you know what, this was a design process, well executed, this is the right way to design.

00:26:43.860 –> 00:26:46.080
What are you looking for when you go into a building?

00:26:46.155 –> 00:26:48.765
David Schrader: Well, anybody would look for timelessness, right?

00:26:48.765 –> 00:26:57.555
So that, that’s, if you’re looking for a facility side of things, that certainly is, is what is going to be very much appreciated.

00:26:57.825 –> 00:27:06.676
But I would say that the first day that we walk in a building, the first day, not talking about 20 years from now, like you’re asking about.

00:27:07.366 –> 00:27:21.907
When you walk in that first day and they open the doors and the kids are just walking in, in awe and they are excited and there’s all kinds of energy and the, the, faculty is full of energy and everybody’s just excited about the new spaces.

00:27:22.296 –> 00:27:25.456
And I’m not talking about the new car smell.

00:27:25.586 –> 00:27:27.376
That’s not the part we’re talking about.

00:27:27.526 –> 00:27:32.916
Talking about the awe of space and how I use it and how exciting that’s going to be.

00:27:33.366 –> 00:27:35.016
And it’s not the same old, same old.

00:27:35.556 –> 00:27:44.106
So you hope that translates over all the years, and that’s gonna be something we hope you hear 20 years into the game, too.

00:27:44.256 –> 00:27:50.535
I do like going back after 10 years, and seeing the buildings just filled with.

00:27:51.210 –> 00:28:06.975
Art and excitement and student athletes and music around you and all of those great things, and just seeing the passion and connection that the kids have with the faculty, that’s a good indicator that things are really going well if you see a lot of that.

00:28:06.975 –> 00:28:07.605
For sure.

00:28:07.635 –> 00:28:08.745
So that’s important.

00:28:09.225 –> 00:28:15.975
I did think of a couple of things, certainly I mentioned that the, you would want 20 years from then the planning to be timeless.

00:28:15.975 –> 00:28:18.825
Hopefully as much as possible, the design is timeless.

00:28:19.635 –> 00:28:23.445
Um, we were just having this conversation with a superintendent yesterday.

00:28:23.641 –> 00:28:31.711
his memory of different eras of buildings that he’s either worked in or been part of, uh, designing as a superintendent.

00:28:32.131 –> 00:28:40.626
He certainly remembers the time that I remember going to school in the institutional buildings with the, puke-green glazed tile hallways.

00:28:41.046 –> 00:28:44.205
Maybe that term’s not the appropriate term, but that’s, that’s yeah.

00:28:44.205 –> 00:28:45.075
You know what it is?

00:28:45.375 –> 00:28:47.325
Everybody remembers these hallways.

00:28:47.505 –> 00:28:56.055
He also remembers the split face block buildings and the green and blue standing seam roofs because he was part of the design of that era.

00:28:56.550 –> 00:29:02.813
And, um, he remembers a couple of other eras where you can pinpoint that, time that that building was built.

00:29:02.813 –> 00:29:03.953
We don’t want that.

00:29:04.013 –> 00:29:07.493
We want these things as much as possible, be to be timeless.

00:29:07.583 –> 00:29:19.461
You brought up both the flexibility and adaptability, which is critical, but to continue the ease, durability, we want these things to hold up so that they don’t look like they’ve been beat up after 20 years.

00:29:19.461 –> 00:29:23.481
So, so that’s really critical to us that they’re built well.

00:29:23.585 –> 00:29:33.963
they feel like good machines that people can really experiment within, finishes and aesthetics, like I mentioned a second ago.

00:29:33.963 –> 00:29:37.023
You don’t want them tying you into an era for sure.

00:29:37.413 –> 00:29:41.043
So we want that to be something that can be adapted and adopted over time.

00:29:41.846 –> 00:29:49.466
And 20 years from now, if that building still looks like it’s the community center, then I think you’ve been successful.

00:29:49.781 –> 00:29:53.051
So that is really, ultimately, what we want.

00:29:53.669 –> 00:30:02.039
Mark Barga: You’ve talked about this in other places and it’s, it’s been said, you know that as, as you’ve worked across many domains of civic life, right?

00:30:02.039 –> 00:30:10.454
You work, your firm has designed community centers, police stations, I mean, everything related to community and civic life.

00:30:11.234 –> 00:30:13.814
There’s a sort of responsibility that comes with that.

00:30:13.904 –> 00:30:19.544
You know, there’s a sort of responsibility, uh, to approach work that is really for the public good.

00:30:19.814 –> 00:30:21.224
Can you talk a little bit about that?

00:30:21.224 –> 00:30:24.044
Like, how, how does that inform your thinking?

00:30:24.699 –> 00:30:27.479
David Schrader: I will say it’s not a burden.

00:30:27.479 –> 00:30:33.124
We’re very grateful to be part of all of those projects for sure, the ones that we are.

00:30:33.337 –> 00:30:40.917
You’re responsible, so back away from all of the great academic thought processes we’ve been talking about.

00:30:41.487 –> 00:30:47.082
And think about the fact that you’re a shepherd of the uh, taxpayer’s dollar.

00:30:47.292 –> 00:30:50.952
And so the responsibility that you have is actually pretty great.

00:30:51.012 –> 00:31:05.732
And whatever you’re putting out there has to be something that is appreciated and recognized by the community, is not thought to be over the top or ostentatious, but definitely represents a great investment of the community’s money.

00:31:05.732 –> 00:31:07.776
So it could be called a burden.

00:31:07.776 –> 00:31:10.896
It’s not a burden because we’re so grateful to be able to do it.

00:31:11.127 –> 00:31:22.557
I think it’s something that you, you definitely have to have some confidence to be able to, to do because you’re, you’re putting things out there in the community that are gonna be out there for 50 years for sure.

00:31:23.231 –> 00:31:25.041
Mark Barga: It’s different than a mall.

00:31:25.866 –> 00:31:27.936
It’s different than a commercial development.

00:31:27.936 –> 00:31:30.666
It’s different than even a residential development somewhere, I mean.

00:31:31.086 –> 00:31:37.326
You know, the the work that you, that you guys have done, I think it can help form and shape different aspects of community life.

00:31:38.151 –> 00:31:38.421
David Schrader: Yeah.

00:31:38.421 –> 00:31:43.275
I’m not sure I think about it enough and how much I appreciate the fact that we can do that.

00:31:43.275 –> 00:32:15.259
you know, it’s great because I think as a, as a designer or planner, you’re always looking at what your colleagues are doing because you’re so appreciative of the really good designers and good planners, and so I will look at a terrific
project by somebody else who’s designed or built something and be able to really appreciate all of the money, time, energy, community support that went into that building and, and feel really good about it and be really excited about it.

00:32:15.259 –> 00:32:21.589
So I think amongst our entire team, we certainly try to instill in people regularly.

00:32:21.594 –> 00:32:22.804
Like you, you guys realize.

00:32:23.764 –> 00:32:33.724
the incredible opportunity that you have to be building within your communities and how, what a great opportunity that is for you as a designer and planner.

00:32:33.977 –> 00:32:36.107
We try to do that somewhat regularly.

00:32:36.107 –> 00:32:48.707
We also try to highlight, uh, every couple of weeks will highlight projects that maybe not everybody in the, the studios know about and really put that out there with them so that they can feel the same pride.

00:32:48.737 –> 00:32:50.117
It’s, it’s an amazing thing.

00:32:50.117 –> 00:32:54.352
We also have, every year at the holiday party, and it

00:32:54.352 –> 00:33:04.252
might actually be driven just a, a, maybe there’s a tiny bit of, uh, embodiment involved at the holiday party, but you’re also celebrating what happened that year and all these great projects.

00:33:04.252 –> 00:33:11.752
And it’s really great ’cause the, the significant others who are attending this thing also get to see, and I’ve heard comments afterwards.

00:33:11.752 –> 00:33:14.542
Wow, didn’t know what so and so was doing as part of this.

00:33:15.207 –> 00:33:18.957
I’m, I have even more pride in, in what they do when they go to work every day.

00:33:18.957 –> 00:33:26.337
So, so I guess maybe that’s a roundabout way to, to express the gratitude that we have for being able to do these kinds of projects.

00:33:26.840 –> 00:33:46.970
Mark Barga: So you’ve referenced some of the other great people you’ve worked with in the course of your career throughout our conversation here, I’m wondering if you might just say a little bit
about the sources of inspiration and connection and strength and insight that you’ve accumulated in your time, both in A4LE and beyond, just as an architect and as a someone who’s led a company.

00:33:47.821 –> 00:33:59.011
David Schrader: The journey of continual learning for me, honestly, has been, um, the Association for Learning Environments and everything that goes along with that, because that obviously has all sorts of spinoffs.

00:33:59.227 –> 00:34:02.827
But this goes back one more time to Ed Kirkbride.

00:34:03.127 –> 00:34:10.507
So Ed was kind of the, the center of trying to bring our region of.

00:34:11.117 –> 00:34:28.197
CEFPI back together, he had a group of colleagues that he was close to and they brought a couple of us who were much younger in and realized that if they hooked us, that we could be the next generation of this and start to build it.

00:34:28.767 –> 00:34:36.597
And I was so lucky at that time because I got in the middle of this great group of people from the whole Northeast and.

00:34:36.833 –> 00:34:54.863
Not only were we so interested in, in CEFPI at that time and building all the, the things that were going on with our region, but we were
buddies and they’re all great planners and designers and folks in the industry from this whole region and, and we just had a great time.

00:34:54.863 –> 00:35:05.393
So that led us, because we would then go to the national conferences and I think we took away at that time more than we provided, quite honestly.

00:35:05.393 –> 00:35:28.747
I think we saw so much going on across the industry that I really feel was not happening in our region and with that plus, kind of a growing thought process in the northeast region,
an even more progressive thought process that was out there, but the buildings had not yet followed, or the learning environments had not yet followed, was the timing was just right.

00:35:28.837 –> 00:35:34.847
It was, we were all able to start to speak the language and do things that we were seeing being done.

00:35:34.847 –> 00:35:41.807
And again, I go back to the Pacific Northwest and some of the great things that people were doing there, and start to bring that into the region.

00:35:42.377 –> 00:35:56.898
Fast forward a little bit, that same group of people evolved through the leadership of Northeast Region and I was fortunate enough to end up at the, um, the international level on the board, and then eventually.

00:35:57.438 –> 00:36:18.919
Uh, was able to be chair of the organization and through that board involvement, I went everywhere and saw more than I think most people are able to
see related to learning environments in places like Singapore, who, who would go to Singapore to look at the learning environments from where I live.

00:36:18.949 –> 00:36:22.039
I mean, it’s, it’s just not an opportunity that many people have.

00:36:22.519 –> 00:36:23.136
Europe.

00:36:23.188 –> 00:36:39.282
Again, throughout Canada and Pacific Northwest, and it just gave you this vocabulary, both of, uh, architectural, context to work within, but it also gave you a really good sense of how learning was changing in these places as well.

00:36:39.627 –> 00:36:45.207
So that gave us a, a true instigation to do some of the things that we’ve done in the region.

00:36:45.207 –> 00:36:49.077
And I know our colleagues from A4LE have done the same thing.

00:36:49.077 –> 00:36:56.157
And together this whole group has really brought, I think has brought, the northeast along in a really great way.

00:36:56.347 –> 00:36:59.045
So I’m psyched to be part of it, to be honest.

00:36:59.552 –> 00:37:07.267
Mark Barga: And you’re, you’re proud to represent your architectural circles from the greater Pennsylvania area, you know, which is, which is exciting.

00:37:07.557 –> 00:37:15.063
So to bring it to a close, if I may, you’ve grown this company right, for decades and,

00:37:15.321 –> 00:37:16.701
It’s changed in many ways.

00:37:16.701 –> 00:37:24.081
I’m sure you could talk all day about the different iterations and the different starts and stops and the ways that it has evolved over time.

00:37:24.471 –> 00:37:33.561
But how have you protected the integrity and the values that guide your process as new folks come, folks go.

00:37:33.591 –> 00:37:38.716
People, you know, people pass through and processes change and the org chart changes.

00:37:39.231 –> 00:37:41.571
Yeah, there’s a core there for you.

00:37:41.816 –> 00:37:45.771
How, how have you kept everybody true to that mission?

00:37:46.356 –> 00:37:48.306
David Schrader: I, and I hope it is true to that mission.

00:37:48.306 –> 00:37:50.256
I hope it looks that way from the outside too.

00:37:50.496 –> 00:37:59.638
Again, I’m super grateful for the background that I had, the opportunity that I had to grow as quickly as I did in the firm that I worked for.

00:37:59.834 –> 00:38:15.374
And the one thing that I think that I saw as I made a decision to not be part of that organization anymore was it was slowly sliding towards making sure that everything was profitable, that everything, and by the way, that’s how business works.

00:38:15.374 –> 00:38:24.614
So let’s not, let’s not push that one aside for even a second, but it was slipping away from really a client-centric approach.

00:38:24.704 –> 00:38:36.869
And so, uh, when I started this, uh, Schrader Group, it was really focused on making sure that the client, the learner, the community was the first focus.

00:38:36.899 –> 00:38:39.839
And yes, we needed to make money to stay in business.

00:38:39.839 –> 00:38:43.379
That’s very important and to continue to attract really good people.

00:38:43.495 –> 00:38:58.773
but you, you really had to focus as that was the initial premise was really to focus on the people and the community and, and I think that that really worked, back to some of your initial questions, that’s what allowed us to always pursue partnerships.

00:38:58.803 –> 00:39:04.393
I’m confident that our clients think that we are partners and we certainly feel that way about them.

00:39:05.668 –> 00:39:14.278
Back to your point, we get into a school district and we are totally engulfed and ingrained in that community.

00:39:14.278 –> 00:39:16.418
We’re at every board meeting where they’re presenting for everything.

00:39:18.568 –> 00:39:20.938
We’re conducting workshops with everybody.

00:39:21.448 –> 00:39:24.568
And so that’s the process that you referenced in your question.

00:39:25.078 –> 00:39:26.729
Um, how do you maintain that?

00:39:26.752 –> 00:39:29.362
Probably most through principal level involvement.

00:39:29.632 –> 00:39:32.542
So anybody that is working.

00:39:32.977 –> 00:39:38.377
And I, I, I would say everybody works around me and around us as the principals.

00:39:38.377 –> 00:39:46.995
We’re, we’re all, everybody’s doing the same level of quality, whether you’re doing it in the office or whether you’re doing it, uh, in front of the client.

00:39:47.625 –> 00:39:50.865
So I think the principal level involvement certainly keeps us there.

00:39:51.345 –> 00:39:59.775
And I do think that the people that come here, come here mostly because they see that and are excited about that and know that it leads to the kinds of projects that we do.

00:39:59.775 –> 00:40:06.810
So, at least for the moment, that’s the way that it’s, evolved and stayed, uh, in a level of evolution.

00:40:06.810 –> 00:40:14.022
Our recent move, which was to become part of Cord Coplan Macht, uh, was really intentional.

00:40:14.044 –> 00:40:19.484
Particularly because we’re the same types of, uh, work in the PK–12.

00:40:19.924 –> 00:40:21.184
They call theirs PK–12.

00:40:21.454 –> 00:40:23.944
We are called Pennsylvania Education as part of that.

00:40:24.136 –> 00:40:36.666
I saw the same thought process in the K–12 group and people that are very, very similar and a culture that has the same, thought processes about the client.

00:40:36.666 –> 00:40:40.476
And so that is a natural evolution for us.

00:40:40.476 –> 00:40:43.986
It’s providing a framework for us to hopefully be even better.

00:40:44.586 –> 00:40:47.286
And provide more to those same clients.

00:40:47.316 –> 00:40:49.536
And, uh, it’s definitely proving itself.

00:40:49.596 –> 00:40:55.206
So to this point in time, those are all the reasons that we’ve done what we’ve done and why we’ve stayed the way we’ve stayed.

00:40:55.637 –> 00:41:02.770
Mark Barga: Closing question for folks in our audience who are about ready to begin the school construction journey.

00:41:03.070 –> 00:41:08.740
They’re just thinking, you know, maybe it’s time to do that addition, or maybe they’re just getting their feet in the water, they’ve begun.

00:41:09.730 –> 00:41:16.690
What parting words of advice might you offer those folks, whether they be on the district side or the design firm side?

00:41:16.823 –> 00:41:18.473
What final thoughts might you offer them?

00:41:18.548 –> 00:41:18.968
David Schrader: Yeah.

00:41:19.418 –> 00:41:28.868
Get, uh, get exposure through groups like A4LE or any of the, the types of groups that, that, that A4LE represents for, for sure.

00:41:29.393 –> 00:41:34.928
And as you get into this, i’m gonna go back to a word that you’ve used several times.

00:41:34.988 –> 00:41:38.768
Make sure that you create a partnership that is true to your end result.

00:41:38.828 –> 00:41:42.248
That is, that is a really important part of this whole process.

00:41:43.463 –> 00:41:44.663
Mark Barga: Well, David Schrader, I cannot

00:41:44.663 –> 00:41:46.553
thank you enough for making the time to sit down.

00:41:46.553 –> 00:41:48.143
It’s been an absolute pleasure having you.

00:41:48.368 –> 00:41:49.058
David Schrader: Oh, thanks Mark.

00:41:49.058 –> 00:41:49.568
Appreciate it.