Read Transcript:

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Jessica Westerduin: Welcome back to the Better Learning Podcast.

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My name is Jessica Westerduin, Education Market Leader for K-12.

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Today we are joined by James Liebman, senior associate at HMFH Architects.

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James brings many years in the industry as an architect and project manager.

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In today’s conversation, we’ll explore James’ architect and leadership journey and discuss how we can foster students’ wellbeing using good educational architect.

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Thank you so much for joining us, James

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James Liebman: Hi Jessica, glad to be here

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Jessica Westerduin: Absolutely.

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Can you please tell us about yourself and how you got involved with designing educational spaces?

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James Liebman: Well, uh, I have been working in architecture for about 30 years.

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and most of that, uh, has been in education, although prior to my years at HMFH, um, a lot of it was higher ed, be it, uh, complicated renovations, to, you know, science facilities for, for sciences and lab, lab buildings.

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my first project out of, out of school was actually a, a kind of a district, a, a renovation of six buildings, and, and additions to six buildings at the University of Pennsylvania with Venturi Scott Brown and Associates.

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Um, and that was sort of my first, experience professionally, but also my first experience in the education space.

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And I re-remember being struck by, the opportunity to really engage with a wide variety of diverse and, complicated and different spaces that added spatial complexity to the whole, which was, you know, really exciting.

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My, my role was, was highly technical, but it was that, uh, capacity to, to engage with multiple kinds of spaces that got me pretty excited about educational space.

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Jessica Westerduin: Yeah.

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Do you remember anything about that process on your first project that like maybe stays with you throughout

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James Liebman: I, I, I re- I remember working ridiculous hours.

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Um, um, but also,

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Jessica Westerduin: totem pole.

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James Liebman: yeah, yeah, I was, I was fresh out of school.

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But, um, but I also, Kind of really figuring out the, the details to, you know, really getting down to how does each component move and work, and how is that going to impact the user experience, was a, was a key part of what I was doing

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Jessica Westerduin: Absolutely.

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And so when we think, you know, we’re working in these K to 12 or higher ed, um, which I do wanna circle back to in a few more questions because I have such, have such a perspective and curiosity about how to bring in students at a higher ed level.

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Um, but before we get there, we really talk about K to 12, you know, you’re part of this design community and you’re designing for many, many learners.

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And so, you know, in your own words, what does it mean to be radically student-centered or to base decisions on the students that you’re impacting?

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James Liebman: I mean, ultimately as you’re designing for, for I’ll say pre-K to 12, the student is central to, every decision c- because ultimately they’re the ones that’s, that are gonna be impacted.

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So whether it’s, creating great classrooms that are meaningfully connected to views and have, uh, meaningful natural light, right?

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These are decisions that, um, you know, may have some impact on the bottom line, but for the most part really are more about the user experience, um, that have flexibility, flexibility in their, um, in their technology, flexibility in their furniture.

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all of that revolves around how it’s going to be used and how it’s gonna be most useful to the, the kids that are there.

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K to 12 is a, is a wide range, right?

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A kindergartner and a, and a, and a 12th grader are nothing alike.

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and so their needs are very different and the classrooms you design for them are, are very different

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Jessica Westerduin: Mm-hmm.

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And that uniqueness to each individual.

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Um, I love the user experience.

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That’s a great way to, um, to think about it because as an educator, when we think user, we have to expand what user means and what that
means for, like you said, a kindergartner versus a 12th grader versus a fourth grader navigating the same, you know, kind of spaces.

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And, and you’ve been a part of projects i- in so many projects in, in, uh, Pennsylvania, I heard, uh, Massachusetts, you know, your, your firm, Rhode Island, New Hampshire.

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Can you share a, a project or, or something that stuck with you about being radically student-centered, right?

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So maybe a project that, you know, you think about all the time or a project that truly made an impact with the community.

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James Liebman: think it opened in 2023.

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it was in construction during, during COVID.

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the Maria Weston Chapman Middle School in Weymouth, Massachusetts.

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It is, it is a middle school, three, three grades, six through eight.

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Um, it’s the largest middle school in the state at, um, a design enrollment of 14– I think it was 1475.

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Um, so it’s a big middle school.

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And once that decision was made to bring those grades together and build for every middle schooler in the, the city, and therefore build the largest middle school
in the state, s- that really pushed us into, um, thinking hard about what’s good for students, what’s good for student wellbeing, and how to design for students.

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And so there, there was a lot of thought at the district level and at the educational planning level, sort of at the beginning of the process
around how we can build a middle school that’s different, and that can serve as a feeder into the career technical programs at the high school.

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And so, ultimately the program included a number of spaces that gave students opportunities to really tap into their interests and spark their interests.

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and these ranged from, a broadcast studio, a black box theater, um, robotics lab, a, a, a commercial c-culinary lab, right?

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Th- and again, this is a middle school.

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Jessica Westerduin: Wow.

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James Liebman: and the culinary lab is, is a, is a great story unto itself, because it was, it was really equipment, driven.

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The, the district wanted a space to teach culinary and to teach, um, nutrition and, and what we real- And they wanted students to use it all the time, so the equipment needed to be commercial equipment.

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Jessica Westerduin: Mm-hmm.

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James Liebman: And, and that decision, because, because the, the residential equipment, even the high-end residential equipment just wasn’t gonna last, um, and they weren’t gonna have funds for, uh, replacement.

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So we, we used commercial equipment that operated as close to home equipment and, and residential equipment as, as, as we could.

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Anyway, that decision to use commercial equipment then drove the program and now they have a commercial culinary lab and they use it.

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they cater events.

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Uh, we had a tour and the students– We had a, a tour for the, the building for the architecture community, and the students set out a great spread and, and catered the entire event, which was really, um,

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Jessica Westerduin: That’s incredible.

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James Liebman: It’s very satisfying to see.

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Jessica Westerduin: That is, absolutely.

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I, I’m so interested.

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I’ve had so many conversations about bringing CTE into middle school to give students the opportunity to ha- play around and explore with all the different avenues before you get to high school and have to, like, really kind of make that decision.

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So I, I, I really appreciate the thought that went into that, when creating that middle school.

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That is a lot of students.

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what was the community kind of thoughts, ideas, barriers, maybe fears going into that?

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Because that could definitely– I mean, that impacts so many, avenues, right?

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James Liebman: There was, a tremendous amount of support.

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That, that was a, a, a project that passed its vote in the 70%.

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there really was a lot of support.

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The barriers were, internal.

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We knew that that was a, a large, a large middle school, and the middle school is, you know, they can be difficult years.

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And, um, providing spaces, you know, that really felt like they were for those kids mattered.

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Um, we worked with the district and were really able to define, what we started calling, um, concentric rings of support.

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And so smaller communities within sm- you know, slightly larger communities within slightly larger communities.

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So each… You know, s- and some of it’s obvious and some of it is mana- you know, school management, but it did manifest itself architecturally.

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each grade is in its own academic wing, that kind of radiate out from a central cafeter- l- you know, large open cafeteria, um, themed as a, uh, town square.

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So each grade has its own wing.

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the build- it’s a two-story building, so, so the grades split across the two floors to create small, you know, again, smaller… break, breaking down that larger community.

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Each f- grade is also split into four teams.

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there’s, uh, two teams per floor for each grade, except for at the sixth grade where there’s more teams, it’s more smaller teams.

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So each group is split into about 100 kids, and that is their core community, and they, they, they identify with that community, both through use of color and naming and, you know, the teachers themselves.

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and then they’re part of this larger community of their floor and the larger community of their grade.

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The sche- scheduling was really critical, and we had a– we were working closely with the principal who was amazing.

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Um, and he, he r- developed a schedule that allowed for, all the students within a grade to be going to these CTE feeder labs or to the gym or to exploratories, at the same time.

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And that provided an opportunity for all the teachers to collaborate, but it also kept the grades, right.

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Everybody was moving to those things in their grade cluster, and then back into their academic wing while the next grade came out.

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Um, so there was not a lot of, say, sixth graders freely roaming while the eighth graders are, finding their classrooms.

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I think that was part of it, but this idea of smaller and smaller communities and supports around those communities The other thing is that that school,
um, that school included what we called a, a, a wraparound services center, which provides, community care, low, low, low bar, um, medical, right?

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So like eyeglass checks and, things like that.

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It also is sort of the center, the central location where programs that help distribute food for students, um, and other sort of family-wide supports come out of that, that part of the building

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Jessica Westerduin: Which is wonderful to offer because, you know, and schools, when the school day really feels like it ends at 3:45, and it’s like that division of like, you know, school, my schoolwork is over and now it’s time to have fun.

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It’s such a negative way to think about school, and having those type of opportunities gets them in the building, right?

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Like when we have students who want to be in the building, then we have done our jobs, you know, as like educators.

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And I love the small community because I think about a, a transition like that.

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Think about those, um, I believe you said it wa- it was fourth, fifth, sixth, like the third–

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James Liebman: six, six, seven, eight

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Jessica Westerduin: Sixth, seventh, eighth.

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So the fifth grade to sixth grade transition, that could feel overwhelming for any student w- without having that like small community.

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Like this is my whole school and I’m a part of the, you know, the bigge- I’m sure that was amazing.

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The biggest school, the largest school, you know, you have that competition.

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We love that drive.

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But then to feel like that necessity of the vision and when you had that process of like the school, we need to create something for the small communities, I think is so important for the students because I do think of
that when we invest in design, you know, in, in one school and we’re not able to do all schools at the same time, how do we transition students to go from maybe a traditional way of thinking to this more progressive idea?

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Um, and I think the small communities is a wonderful job, and it brings me to this visioning process.

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Um, and I– you have a few references, a few claim to fames, James.

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One being that your ability to create and facilitate a very clear design with stakeholders, um, is something that you are very good at and talented at.

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And so how do you, not only for this project, which I’m sure had a lot of stakeholders, but how do you ensure that trust and collaboration when you have projects over, you know, multiple years?

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How do you ensure that trust and collaboration with your clients?

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James Liebman: It comes from being consistent and from working with them, over, over time.

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And so it, it takes that process, letting them know that, we hear them, bringing back evidence that w- they’ve been heard, letting them know that this isn’t their only opportunity to get their ideas out that we will be back.

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and making sure that they’re aware of the roadmap, that we start with big picture decisions and we work our way into the nuts and bolts, and that they don’t need to tell us about the nuts
and bolts on the first meeting and that we, we develop, as much as we can, a durable consensus around the big decisions, um, so that those create the anchor for everything that follows.

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Jessica Westerduin: Yeah.

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Ab- absolutely.

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And the evidence, right, of being heard, I think is so important.

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I love that you mentioned that too, because, you know, it’s not just data all the time, but a lot of the times, I mean, a superintendent is running a school at the same time as the project.

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Like, that’s not their main focus, and not having that clear vision, that clear alignment, you see so many missed opportunities or so many decisions made, you know, years later.

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Uh, they’re like, “This wasn’t the best decision,” and now, you know, that’s, that’s what it is.

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And so having con- that, that, that evidence that like, here’s where we are.

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Let’s visually see are we behind, in front, you know, where, where are we going?

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I think is in, in completely important for you to, to– for us to be able to do with our clients just to build that trust because they’re leaving it in our hands, right?

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James Liebman: Well, and they need to be able to, to make decisions and move on, right?

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And not, not feel that they need to revisit those decisions again and again.

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Both because it will hinder the process, but also it, it, you know, it has to be anxiety-producing.

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I’m always– You mentioned superintendents, I’m always amazed by superintendents.

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Superintendents have so many jobs, co-guiding, uh, a building project is just one of them.

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Um, the commitment of every superintendent I’ve ever worked with is, is mind-blowing.

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Jessica Westerduin: Yeah.

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No, absolutely.

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And to be thinking about, you know, new people coming into that environment too, and how to support them.

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Um, it’s really, you know, we, we talk about change management, you know, in my role a lot because that’s like an, an unhe- it’s kind
of like that invisible thing that comes along with these projects is, you know, if you build it doesn’t mean they necessarily come.

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They really need to be, you know, them being teachers and students and community need to be brought along the process, or they have this thing that they just don’t know how to interact with, right?

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And so how do you kind of balance, you know, when you’re, when you’re in meetings with superintendents, the, you know, you have budget, you have functionality, you have longevity that you’re thinking about.

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How do you balance all of that when you’re in these conversations?

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James Liebman: functionality has to come first, right?

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It has to work.

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And it has to– And you, you mentioned longevity.

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It has to work for, it has to work for a long time.

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And, that means, you know, robust materials, things that aren’t going to, to break, sort of ease, ease of operation.

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but it also means adaptability, just because something works today doesn’t mean it’s gonna be what they need 10 years from now.

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And w- w- you know, that’s evident in, um, in school design at, at, you know, as you look at your projects from, from even the recent past.

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adaptability is tricky because there’s nothing more adaptable than just endless space, but we can’t build endless space as you, you, you did mention budget.

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Um, and, and space costs dollars.

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so adaptability, adaptability means, you know, good technology, um, and, and s- space for adaptive technology.

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It means, um, great furniture that can be moved.

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um, it also means sort of a good sequence of spaces so that, just because you’ve got a great classroom, if you don’t have maybe a breakout space or, um, other o- other educational opportunities nearby, that doesn’t lead to great adaptability either.

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So, um, you know, adaptability doesn’t just mean lots of space and, and really the key is to, is to, uh, find ways to not overbuild or projects will never pass their, their, their funding votes.

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so you’re looking for other ways to make sure that it’s always functional for the life of the building, which we hope, you know, we say it’s 50 years, but if they’re well-maintained, and they usually are, it’s, it’s well beyond 50 years, um, often double that.

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Jessica Westerduin: Absolutely.

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And, and, and I, I can predict that some of those conversations are rather hard too when you’re really focusing on functionality and safety, and you wanna, you wanna see the bells and whistles.

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They wanna see the new furniture pieces and the amazing welding table that’s coming out and, and, you know, having to balance that conversation, uh, definitely one begins with that
trust to be able to say like, “We’re gonna pause that for the next meeting because we’re really thinking about, you know, student behavior,” or whatever the, the subject is at the time.

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Um, but it’s hard.

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It’s hard to balance that and to navigate that.

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And we in Massachusetts, you know, we, we have systems in place to ensure that that doesn’t happen, that we don’t, you know, go, you know, AWOL with budgets or functionalities or, um, or funding.

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Uh, you wanna talk a little bit about your projects and working with the MSBA and kind of how you navigate that system as well?

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James Liebman: so let me start with just a little bit about what the MSBA is.

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So the, the– We’re talking about the Massachusetts School Building Authority.

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school building is, is funded through this state agency who receives their funding from our sales tax.

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1% of our sales tax funds the building of schools in Massachusetts, so that’s a constant funding stream.

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they fund projects based on need.

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So the, the, there’s a, there’s a scale of the percent of, construction and there’s all sorts of, of funding caps.

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But anyway, the, the, the key to it is that they’re giving, funding to districts and towns and, and cities to help them build, schools that are appropriate for, education, for the, for their educational needs.

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And so the first step is always, uh, educational pl- a district-wide educational plan, um, that we help to facilitate in the early phases of design.

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And that is really the opportunity for the district to define exactly what it is that their education will deliver and what they need to deliver it.

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it’s through that document, that very early design document, that we as educators, I mean, as, sorry, as designers of educational facilities, can start to lay out and define spaces outside of the, the sort of standard template.

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It’s with that document that we can talk to the, MSBA and go outside of their guidelines Districts are often looking for, things that are specific to their needs.

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Every district has very different, um, educational needs, particularly around special education.

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that’s where we see the widest, sort of variety of, of needs.

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but also around number of, physical education st- spaces, um, maker spaces, other educational opportunities like these, um, um, CTE theater labs that I was speaking of at, uh, Maria Weston Chapman Middle School.

00:21:08.065 –> 00:21:21.607
so it’s that document, that early educational visioning that really defines, the spatial needs and ultimately the architecture, for the building that, that then gets designed around those requirements.

00:21:22.157 –> 00:21:42.917
Jessica Westerduin: absolutely because it does, because I think, you know, it’s important for us to name that, that, that vision process, not only how important it is, but that the questions
and like sometimes you’re really digging into specific student behavior, but that’s what we’re really trying to change with these new buildings is the student behavior, teacher behavior.

00:21:42.917 –> 00:21:45.927
And so I feel like I love the word artifacts.

00:21:45.927 –> 00:21:47.287
That’s just like a teacher in me.

00:21:47.287 –> 00:22:20.860
So like that, using that artifact with the MSBA or that, you know, document those standards, it requires everyone at the table, whoever, you know, I know that the MSBA, you’re still in that bidding process, but
it requires us to be thoughtful and to have this kind of predictability for students and for families that I think is really important in education, that you’re going to have those maker spaces or it’s gonna be,
you know, your athletic facilities is really gonna be thought about if you are, you know, someone who really enjoys that, that special education, you know, curriculum and programming is really being thought about.

00:22:20.860 –> 00:22:55.720
And so I take that, those type of kind of systems that we have as like ensuring that everyone is having, to some degree, an experience, um, that is similar or at least a little bit predictable, which I
think is important, especially when you’re in a huge state, um, that has, you know, many, many schools and there’s independent and public and traditional and, and, and there’s so many options for you that
I do like the standardization of having something that is going to be more predictable, especially when you’re thinking about a family who might be new to Massachusetts, to the public school system as well.

00:23:00.548 –> 00:23:05.278
You know, when we work with schools at K12, it’s not just about furniture or design, it’s about impact.

00:23:05.558 –> 00:23:09.648
Our radically student-centered approach puts students at the center of every decision.

00:23:10.028 –> 00:23:18.058
From that first conversation to the final walkthrough, we’re focused on creating spaces that actually work for the kids, the teachers, and the community.

00:23:18.378 –> 00:23:22.118
So if you’re looking to do more than just check a box on your next project, let’s talk.

00:23:22.438 –> 00:23:32.228
Visit k12.com, that’s K-A-Y-T-W-E-L-V-E.com, and see how we’re helping schools transform learning one student at a time.

00:23:32.728 –> 00:23:36.748
Because at K12, it’s not just about projects and furniture, it’s about purpose.

00:23:37.365 –> 00:23:52.535
James Liebman: it, it goes back to this idea of, big decisions early, documenting them in a way that you can go back to as you make, you know, the sort of funnel of d- of smaller dec- decisions, and make sure that they’re reinforcing those early decisions.

00:23:53.148 –> 00:24:01.904
and that that planning process really does allow for that, that back check, to make sure that everything’s reinforcing the, the larger planning goals.

00:24:02.464 –> 00:24:06.064
The other thing is that often we’re not changing behavior.

00:24:06.524 –> 00:24:09.749
We are, supporting behaviors that are already happening.

00:24:10.219 –> 00:24:20.709
Um, I believe that, that educational spaces can either, um, support great education or they can kind of hinder it, but that it’s happening, right?

00:24:20.709 –> 00:24:22.979
T- the, the teachers are doing it.

00:24:22.979 –> 00:24:34.359
Um, they just are, are, are either, you know, helped along the way and able to do it a little bit better because, because of that, or they’re, or, or the spaces are, are, are hindering them.

00:24:34.849 –> 00:24:37.959
And s- the students, um, same thing, right?

00:24:37.999 –> 00:24:46.622
I mean, spaces that, are full of natural light, that have great acoustics, that have the teaching technology they need, these are supporting the student learning.

00:24:46.902 –> 00:24:53.425
It’s happening anyway, but these factors do have impact and have impacts on performance.

00:24:53.718 –> 00:24:56.934
that is felt by everybody within those spaces.

00:24:57.282 –> 00:25:05.522
but I don’t know that we’re changing behavior so much as eleva- you know, supporting it, and in doing so, making it easier for it to be elevated.

00:25:06.612 –> 00:25:10.282
Jessica Westerduin: I think making it easier for, for– to take risks too, right?

00:25:10.282 –> 00:25:23.712
When you’re in this environment that is something new, it’s being reinvested, being rebuilt in, sometimes educators, you know, they’re,
they’re free to, “Well, I have this new furniture in front of me. I’m gonna try something silly, you know? I’m gonna try something different.”

00:25:23.922 –> 00:25:30.722
Um, and that right there can really spark so much engagement and so much passion in a classroom, um, which is wonderful to see.

00:25:30.966 –> 00:25:42.266
So, uh, we were talking a little bit about higher ed, and I’m very curious about your thoughts, you know, envision planning differences between doing that in a higher ed and then doing that, you know, pre-K to 12.

00:25:42.738 –> 00:25:43.938
James Liebman: I’ve given some thought to this.

00:25:44.008 –> 00:25:47.688
The decisions, the, the, the decision makers are different, right?

00:25:47.688 –> 00:25:56.925
I mean, K-12 are, in Massachusetts anyway are, and I think in a lot of states are committee-based decision makers.

00:25:57.485 –> 00:26:08.818
Whereas in higher ed, it can vary, but there’s often a powerful deacon who’s, who’s behind a project and, and it’s more singular in terms of its source of, of decision making.

00:26:09.182 –> 00:26:11.122
and that makes a huge difference.

00:26:11.550 –> 00:26:16.083
another big difference is, is budgets are different because the ambitions are different, right?

00:26:16.453 –> 00:26:27.352
school, K through 12 projects have needs, districts have needs, and those needs really need to be met, um, so that they can educate their kids to the highest, highest quality.

00:26:28.962 –> 00:26:39.052
Higher ed, a lot of what we’re looking at is, is driven by ambition and by, um, drawing the strongest students, drawing the strongest faculty.

00:26:39.352 –> 00:26:45.075
There’s a very different, there’s a very different level of, of ambition within, within the project.

00:26:45.645 –> 00:26:57.239
And, um, and that manifests itself, Furniture is also a place where K to 12 is very different than, than the furniture in, in higher ed spaces.

00:26:57.649 –> 00:27:01.547
And I think that, that can have a big impact on how, how the spaces are used

00:27:02.272 –> 00:27:02.832
Jessica Westerduin: Absolutely.

00:27:03.072 –> 00:27:03.482
I love that.

00:27:03.492 –> 00:27:11.832
I really wasn’t thinking about that ambitious r- that competitiveness almost, where the pre-K through 12, you know, industry is a little bit less.

00:27:11.832 –> 00:27:16.732
It’s a little bit like they’re, you know, the schools are there and we’re rebuilding them, and there’s definitely shine.

00:27:17.102 –> 00:27:30.692
Um, but yeah, that like, that ambitiousness or what’s going to set you apart, especially currently when the attendance and, you know, it, uh, the, in, in higher ed has gone down, you know, um, tremendously.

00:27:31.138 –> 00:27:34.938
James Liebman: I mean, there’s still a great deal of pride in, in K to 12 work.

00:27:34.968 –> 00:27:43.993
And, and, and the schools that districts build, they take great pride in, and, um, and they’re beautiful projects, but it is a different, a different driver

00:27:44.425 –> 00:27:45.615
Jessica Westerduin: Yep, absolutely.

00:27:45.785 –> 00:28:00.509
and as we kind of close and reflect, um, radically student-centered, what is one takeaway that you would want audiences to come away with when thinking about designing radically student-centered environments?

00:28:01.642 –> 00:28:06.462
James Liebman: So much of the K to 12 work is really district-driven.

00:28:06.902 –> 00:28:13.825
And so what it means to be, radically student-centered is very different in one district than another.

00:28:13.865 –> 00:28:35.612
And so the, the capacity to, ask questions, the capacity to not know, and to, and to, you know, really listen and let what you hear impact the designs, that will lead to more student-centric, um, projects and more appropriate projects for individual districts.

00:28:35.986 –> 00:28:36.466
Jessica Westerduin: Absolutely.

00:28:36.566 –> 00:28:37.446
That’s great advice.

00:28:37.476 –> 00:28:41.273
My next question, HMFH builds with purpose.

00:28:41.523 –> 00:28:47.533
Um, that was something that they were very clear about, and so they ask, they design, and they learn with purpose.

00:28:47.533 –> 00:28:52.293
And so I ask you, what is your individual purpose?

00:28:52.303 –> 00:28:59.453
Or maybe what motivates you to get up every day and do your job in the K to 12 realm?

00:28:59.745 –> 00:29:01.795
James Liebman: I love solving problems.

00:29:02.255 –> 00:29:10.105
Um, I tackle every problem from the hardest part of it to the, to the easiest part of it because, because once you’ve done that, it’s all easy.

00:29:10.412 –> 00:29:24.282
the breadth of my work from, working with superintendents and, um, leading or co-leading visioning processes to, detailing complicated exterior, exterior details is really broad.

00:29:24.522 –> 00:29:33.405
but it’s that, that desire to, uh, figure out where the sticking points are and dive in, I find really exciting.

00:29:35.205 –> 00:29:36.415
Jessica Westerduin: Thank you so much for sharing.

00:29:36.425 –> 00:29:38.415
That’s a very nice sentiment to end on.

00:29:38.845 –> 00:29:40.785
Uh, I’m going to thank everyone.

00:29:40.825 –> 00:29:42.415
Um, thank you for your time.

00:29:42.415 –> 00:29:44.945
Thank you, James, your expertise and your insights today.

00:29:44.955 –> 00:29:46.635
It was a pleasure learning with you.

00:29:47.115 –> 00:29:55.675
Uh, if listeners would like to hear more or share their own radically student-centered moments, we invite you to like, comment, and share at betterlearningpodcast.com.

00:29:56.471 –> 00:29:57.011
James Liebman: Thank you, Jessica.

00:29:57.071 –> 00:29:57.561
This was fun

00:29:57.595 –> 00:29:57.855
Jessica Westerduin: Thank you.

00:30:00.745 –> 00:30:05.165
The Better Learning Podcast is produced by Matt Rogers and edited by Kelly Jones.

00:30:05.875 –> 00:30:15.275
The views and opinions shared on this podcast are those of the individuals speaking and do not necessarily represent the perspectives of their affiliated companies, organizations, or associations