Read Transcript:

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Mark Barga: Welcome back to the Better Learning Podcast.

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This is Mark Barga.

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I’m here with the one and only Larry Levato from Crabtree Rohrbaugh.

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Larry, thank you so much for joining

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Larry Levato: Absolutely, pleasure to be here.

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Mark Barga: Larry, you’re very familiar with the podcast and our A4LE audience, but I’d love for you to give these folks a little bit of your biography.

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How, uh, w- how did you get to this point of your career?

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How did you end up designing schools in the first

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Larry Levato: Sure.

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G- that’s a good, good start.

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Um, I, I actually was an architect up in Massachusetts for a number of years.

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my wife’s family’s from Pennsylvania, so we were coming down here all the time for vacations, to see family, events, and, um, one day my brother-in-law said, “You know, you, you, you live outside of Boston.

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You got a four-hour commute to go 30 miles.

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I spend an extra four hours a day with my kids than you do.

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have you ever considered moving to another market?” Um, and at the time we had our first child, so here we are kinda just my wife and I, my rock, my wife Lee.

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we have our first child, but there’s no family around us.

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We have no support system.

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So we came down for Easter one year, uh, had the nice six-and-a-half-hour drive back.

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She has me captured in the car.

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This was her MO, has been her MO for the 34 years we’ve been married, and says, um, “Hey, you know, if you wanna move, I’ll move with you.

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We’ll go wherever you wanna go.

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But I think it would be nice if we had some family around the, the kids.” so I came down Labor Day that year, interviewed with a couple firms, um, and I walked into a, a firm, did K to 12 work.

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That’s all they did.

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And I’d never done a school in my life.

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And he said, uh, “How can you help me?” I said, “Look, it’s, it’s…

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I can figure out a budget.

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I can figure out the process.

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It’s really the client relationship that I wanna focus on.” And he hired me.

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Uh, I’d never done a school project, so, um, that was 27 years ago.

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Here I am

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Mark Barga: What type of architecture were you doing previously?

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And I’m actually curious, did, did any of that prior architectural work inform your approach to schools?

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Larry Levato: so I, I did corporate.

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I d- I did a whole, uh, residential gig for a few years.

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Um, Martha’s Vineyard, Nantucket, Beacon Hill, really prestigious houses, historic renovations.

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A- actually, for a while, I was building houses.

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I built houses in Cambridge, uh, Mass for four years, so I was out in the elements for four years and really realized I have this degree in architecture.

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W- let’s go back to the architecture side.

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Let’s see what that office environment is.

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so I think those experiences all lend to architecture.

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I just knew that there’s a lot of opportunity in the field of architecture, so I wasn’t opposed to going in any one direction.

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I just hadn’t been exposed to education at that point.

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So when I came here and like, okay, well, I, I gotta learn another process, and I gotta learn… But that client interaction didn’t change, right?

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That is still a mainstay.

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You have a client.

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They typically have a budget.

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they have a need.

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what’s the best way to marry the two?

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So that’s kind of where I’ve focused.

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Mark Barga: Well, and you, you having a holistic perspective on the design process and also the client experience- you’ve done a remarkable job becoming an expert in educational design and some of the philosophies that go into education, right?

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So you’ve seen a lot of trends, right?

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You’ve seen a lot of cycles in architecture.

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So, trends come and go, you know, glass everything, academies, technology everywhere, lots of different, you know, open plan, you know, collaborative zones.

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Some of these things have real durability and im- and, and permanence.

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Some of them are just phases.

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Right.

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I’m curious, as you’re guiding your clients and you’re working with them, how do you help them navigate the difference between something that might just be a flash in the pan trend and something that actually taps into deeper educational principles?

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Larry Levato: in, in, in every aspect of architecture, there’s trends.

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I, I, I think the focus, again, going back to that, that client focus, they don’t know what they don’t know, right?

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Um, the majority of our work, um, is K to 12 public education.

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It’s a little different than

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private.

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Um,

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but in the, in

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the public education,

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we

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hear

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a lot more terms of equity, or we don’t want a school within our district or our system that

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is

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completely different or m- more advanced, more modern, more technology advanced, um, than others because it gives an unfair education advantage to students.

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Um, and then y- your cream of the crop teaching staff is gonna wanna work out of that school, right?

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So I, I, I think we need to hear them.

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Um, Crabtree Rohrbaugh has a 42-year history of client-oriented approach to architecture.

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We have to listen to our clients, but we also have the ability here, and this has been, uh, one of the better places I’ve ever worked, to go out and find out what’s going out there, go hear the conversations,
go to conferences, get in the professional, uh, development role, understand what education means, not just building a box, building classrooms, or putting a program down on paper because you can.

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Let’s go understand what that really means, and a lot of times in, in both the firms that I’ve worked with in, in, in the last 26 years, it’s been that conversation of if we have an educator on our team, on
our architectural team, just being around them and watching their interaction and their understanding of how education is delivered, ’cause everybody says, “Well, this is a great environment for the kids.”

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And I back that up and say, “This is a great environment for those adults that are teaching in that space.” Those, those educators are in that
environment more than the kids on a daily basis- And are we doing everything we can so that they can be at their best of their profession?

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Mark Barga: It’s such an important balance that you’re pointing out there of figuring out, well, what is the relationship between a student-centered environment and an educator-centered environment?

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And these really are people within a learning community, right?

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In your experience and in your travels, uh, both in school design but also in the broader architectural community, you know, we do– we of course rightfully design
with students in mind, but as you point out, teachers, and myself a former educator, they really are the gatekeepers for student experiences in a lot of ways, right?

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So talk a little bit about how school design, architecture, interior design, the, the work you’ve done can play a role in elevating teacher performance and really uplifting professional culture, which we know is a critical need for teachers across the country.

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Larry Levato: M- one

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of the things, a- and, and we can talk more about it, um, but m- A- A4LE, and I was a member when it was CEFP.

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Council for Educational Facilities Planners.

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it, it changed its acronym to A4LE, Association for Learning Environments, as you know.

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when you go to those conferences and are in those, um, those seminars and, and, and sessions, hearing your peers, hearing the educators that are part of that, that environment, taking the lessons learned, but also hearing the
conversations that they’re having, it’s really elevating that conversation about, hey, don’t forget that you have a whole professional part of this school that you’re doing, and that professional staff wants to thrive and grow as well.

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Don’t, don’t miss the opportunity, one, to engage them.

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push to get those engagements.

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Um, make sure it’s not being just pushed on you from the administration, but engage those teachers because they have thoughts too, and they wanna bring that to the table.

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And so they wanna feel elevated.

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They wanna feel important.

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Um, they wanna feel that they can provide a better, build a better mousetrap.

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Y- y- they’re at the point, uh, you know, they call the tip of the spear.

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They’re the ones right there with my kids every day, and I want them to be in their best environment and their best opportunities.

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So that’s always been our conversation, and I think A4LE has really promoted that.

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Having educators is part of our, you know, community, like I said, has been instrumental.

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Um, so that’s where if I go to a conference, I’m queuing on those sessions ’cause I wanna hear those conversations.

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How can I do my job better to engage those professionals?

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And so I’ll do guiding principles, exercise, visual listening exercises.

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There’s a lot of tools in the toolbox out there.

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but I’ll do it with educators as much as I do it with students.

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There’s all sorts of engagement, and I think there’s another piece to that is the community.

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How are we tied to the community?

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this is not my school.

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I may not live in that district or that community, um, but ultimately that community wants to feel that this is really in the best for their kids and their, even their, their staff members that work at that building.

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So, uh, I, I think that’s been a focus too.

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That community tie’s been important.

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Mark Barga: I do appreciate the way you talked about the professional work happening within schools, right?

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Uh, we both spend a lot of time in architecture and design firms.

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Yes.

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And we see spaces that are created so that professionals can practice a craft.

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And I think that more districts, increasingly, the, the more enlightened ones perhaps, approach their schools as spaces that should be designed for their professionals to practice a craft.

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And teaching, as we know, is a very high degree of difficulty craft, and the complexities, the challenges that educators navigate are profound.

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I love to hear you talk about that and your appreciation for that.

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And actually, you, you brought up the, the community, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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And schools as a central part of a, of a social community, of a civic community, right?

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And I think we both agree- Right … that schools really should be the heartbeat of a community.

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Here, I’m curious, every district is different, and every project is different, right?

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Sure.

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And I’m curious what your instincts tell you about, you know, to what degree a school should be a mirror of its community, or to what degree a school should be a catalyst for progress, whatever that might mean within a community.

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Sure.

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How do you think about that as, as far as schools as a social institution, should they perfectly reflect the community, or should they serve a broader, perhaps grander vision for development and growth?

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Larry Levato: I think I can easily speak to this from my background, right?

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I grew up in a little tiny community.

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It was a mile by a mile square, little tiny school district, uh, in upstate New York.

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they, they, they were community schools.

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There was an elementary, ju- middle school, junior high, and a high school.

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That, that’s all the district had.

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My, you know, my graduating class was 120 people.

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And I had two brothers that are older than me went through before it, but my mom would come down for teacher conferences, and she knew every one of my teachers on a personal level.

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Um, they’d have dinner together.

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They like, “Hey, you know, if Larry needs a good crack, give him a crack.” ‘Cause back then it was like, “You’re gonna discipline him as much as I am, but then let me know when he gets home so I can make sure we right the ship.”

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Right?

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‘Cause again, I had two brothers that kinda maybe were not on the, the straight path.

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but I knew it, it, it taught respect.

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It taught what that community piece really meant to people because when they sent us to school, they knew who was gonna be educating us, and they had faith in them on that friendship level that they were entrusted to really do that.

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Do we have that anymore?

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I don’t know.

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So we talk about community schools, but so when we’re working in a district, um, I, I think the community, view has changed a bit.

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for better or for worse, and, and there is definitely good parts to safety and security, but if there’s people on campus that are not normally on campus, is that a good or a bad behavior, and what is that reaction?

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Versus now we’re talking a lot more about, hey, there’s an opportunity here for a wellness center on, on the campus or in the school.

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There’s an opportunity for a community room in the school.

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Can we provide some of these services that are just not for that K to 12 environment?

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Can we do it for the teaching staff, so then they don’t have to drive across town for the medical?

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They can be right here if they gotta go see the doctor or a c- uh, you know, a counselor.

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and is there an opportunity then for our adults of our community who wanna get additional education to come back and use the same environment, uh, and, and have those resources?

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That’s where I see a lot of opportunity and community use, uh, and community ties.

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again, there’s some concerns with that from a safety standpoint.

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you don’t know them.

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you know people who are in your school and expected to be in your school.

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Um, so how do we do that from an architectural standpoint?

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Then the conversation has to be there both with the board, the community, the teachers, right?

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We have to assure the teaching staff that we’re doing what’s in best interest for everybody, and make sure we have those conversations early.

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Do you understand what this, this implies and this implication is?

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that’s where they can be successful.

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Mark Barga: There’s an interesting boundary you’re pointing out there between the school as, you know, i- in some respects a, a guarded safe haven, and the school as a place where the boundary between community and learning is not as clear.

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There’s a tension there.

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There speaking of tension, I’m curious, right?

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You, you’ve, you’ve worked on many school projects in many contexts: urban, rural, suburban, you name it, independent, public charter.

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Right.

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You’ve taken some risks as an architect, right?

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I’m sure, right?

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So, so tell me, what are some of the riskier decisions you’ve advocated for, right?

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And now this is In, in light of the context that you’ve learned about your clients, right?

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Sure.

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So you’re acting as an advocate and ambassador for an idea, right?

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what are some of the, what are some of the risks you’ve run as an architect previously?

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And how did they work out?

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Larry Levato: There’s always this is the client, they have a project in mind, they have a budget in mind, and they always have a timeframe in mind.

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one of the hardest conversations, and we’re trying to teach all of our staff this, is we have to control that schedule in some capacity.

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Now, we get it.

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We don’t wanna open a school in October.

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We wanna open them in August or whatever before school.

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We wanna open them maybe midyear, right?

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But other than that, we don’t wanna open them in February.

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We don’t wanna open them i- in that midstream.

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so we get that part.

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so w- we, case in point, we, it was my home district.

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I, I knew the board members, superintendent pretty well.

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I was newly appointed to them from the firm.

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our former manager had moved to Virginia office.

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The schedule started to drift a bit.

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And superintendent grabbed me one day, he says, “Hey, I, I have a big concern, and my board’s kinda concerned ’cause every time you walk in for a presentation, we’re out a couple more months, we’re out a couple more months.

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Months mean dollars.

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Months means that our students aren’t in that new environment.

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We’re not under construction.

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It, it… Is everything all right?

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Y- y- you guys are a big player in the game of education.

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Um, w- we, you know, 80-plus staff.

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Y- that’s what you touted, um, that you have the resources.

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Do you have the resources?” I said, “Mike, we absolutely have the resources.” I said, “The bigger thing is, are we having all the conversations we need to have?

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Because there’s tens of thousands of conversations that go on in this design of this project, in the delivery of this project.

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we wanna do it right.

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You’re doing this once.

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You’re spending a lot of money.

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your board may be upset with me, uh, and I’ll, I’ll, I’ll take that heat, that’s my role, that the schedule’s not where they, where we said it was gonna be.

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It’s shifted.

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very good reasons though, because you’re spending a ton of money on this project.”

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And it just so happened, he goes, “Well, I don’t like it, but I agree with that.” And lo- lo and behold, we extend the schedule out about seven months on him.

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Um, and just as soon as we start construction, we ran into COVID

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And contractor stopped.

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Districts were discussing, do we proceed?

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Do we shut down the, the process?

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They deemed it was important that they keep moving on this school, ’cause it was a three-year construction window.

00:17:03.775 –> 00:17:07.265
And here we go in front of the boards again virtually.

00:17:07.715 –> 00:17:09.035
Like, what are we going to do?

00:17:09.045 –> 00:17:10.735
How are you gonna get this up back on track?

00:17:11.345 –> 00:17:14.815
We held meetings with the stakeholders and the contractors all in the same room.

00:17:15.495 –> 00:17:16.875
How can we work and proceed?

00:17:16.875 –> 00:17:17.895
How can we do this?

00:17:17.955 –> 00:17:18.795
And you know what?

00:17:19.125 –> 00:17:22.675
That conversation was one of the best conversations we ever had.

00:17:23.345 –> 00:17:36.055
But having board members as part of that conversation, they can hear it firsthand, that everybody was pulling in the same direction to get that building back on track and to get that facility opened as close to on time as possible.

00:17:36.425 –> 00:17:39.595
So along the way, in each phase, we made some concessions.

00:17:39.965 –> 00:17:46.215
Hey, you might not get your auditorium till October, but let’s focus on the classroom spaces ’cause kids are coming back.

00:17:46.645 –> 00:17:49.245
Let’s focus on this because we need to do this.

00:17:49.485 –> 00:17:58.773
We ran into the procurement issues and the, you know, some increase in, in, in cost that the board wasn’t happy paying more ’cause the taxpayers are paying the the bill.

00:17:58.943 –> 00:18:05.693
but we had those conversations often and early, understanding, and everybody was on the same page, that they were difficult.

00:18:05.924 –> 00:18:07.934
we delivered the project on time.

00:18:08.814 –> 00:18:16.874
Um, and we, with, with besides a few extra dollars in, due to COVID and, and procurement, it was delivered on budget.

00:18:17.434 –> 00:18:20.084
And at the end of the game, they’re like, “Man, you did it right.”

00:18:20.255 –> 00:18:27.135
but that early conversation of why did the schedule push, we could have been in a whole different place had we rushed that out the door.

00:18:27.145 –> 00:18:45.445
Mm. It wasn’t properly finished, the questions weren’t properly answered, and then we’re guessing on the fly or making adjustments on the fly, especially when we got
into that really difficult environment where the contractors had to know exactly what they were doing at any one time, because there was no extra time to gain back.

00:18:45.980 –> 00:18:52.919
Mark Barga: Uh, well, it caught my attention that, the way I thought that question was phrased- was really about architectural risks.

00:18:53.199 –> 00:19:00.055
And what you’ve, what you’ve highlighted here is a process risk you took that really deepened collaboration.

00:19:00.114 –> 00:19:04.894
It elevated the sophistication you guys had around what you were doing and why you were doing it.

00:19:04.894 –> 00:19:04.974
Yeah.

00:19:05.334 –> 00:19:11.594
So I think that’s that’s a, …that’s actually just a, s- that’s, uh, it caught me by surprise that that’s the direction you took, that, and I really appreciate that.

00:19:11.762 –> 00:19:15.162
Larry Levato: well, in the same token on that, I can use that same project, right?

00:19:15.404 –> 00:19:19.814
They didn’t have but one building that had collaborative spaces in it.

00:19:19.814 –> 00:19:23.064
That was their first elementary in 65 years.

00:19:23.291 –> 00:19:32.131
so when we brought that conversation to the table, that’s a risky conversation for a district that was, let’s call it traditional, right?

00:19:32.443 –> 00:19:39.833
Their, their whole board, their whole population in that area, um, they all went to school at the same schools.

00:19:39.873 –> 00:19:47.083
They all went there from the ’60s, the ’50s, the ’60s, the ’70s, and they were like, “Well, what’s wrong with our education?

00:19:47.223 –> 00:19:51.843
I went to school there, 55 and 60, and I, I’m doing fine.

00:19:51.873 –> 00:19:53.123
I, I manage a career.

00:19:53.123 –> 00:19:54.173
I manage the family.”

00:19:54.693 –> 00:20:06.433
Um, bringing those conversations to them and trying to get them, not to change their mindset, but to open their mindset to other opportunities.

00:20:07.113 –> 00:20:16.583
And it was based on the kids, it was based on the staff, and it was really a vision of that administration group when we started doing some of that.

00:20:16.643 –> 00:20:18.403
And today they’re still our client.

00:20:18.713 –> 00:20:20.503
I’ve been working with them for 18 years.

00:20:20.712 –> 00:20:22.392
We’re doing two more projects for them right now.

00:20:22.392 –> 00:20:23.952
They’re really pushing that boundary.

00:20:24.342 –> 00:20:26.942
They’re having the conversations ’cause they’re used to having them.

00:20:27.452 –> 00:20:31.622
The, the principal at that first project is now the superintendent.

00:20:32.212 –> 00:20:40.335
Uh, I took him to an A4LE conference, and he was on his phone the whole day, didn’t say two words to me, and he’s furiously writing on his phone.

00:20:40.335 –> 00:20:49.615
I’m like, “Wow, he’s totally distracted with work.” And I said to him, I said, “Hey, Phil, if you can’t do dinner, you, you can definitely jump and, and, and go take care of business.

00:20:49.615 –> 00:20:53.605
I get your role.” He goes, “No, no, no.” He goes, “This is just so fascinating.

00:20:53.605 –> 00:21:02.837
These conversations are way above what I expected.” He goes, “I have so much more to bring back to my team.” And, and I wanna have all these conversations.

00:21:02.867 –> 00:21:04.497
I wanna do these exercises.

00:21:04.877 –> 00:21:08.087
I really think we can elevate this whole project.” And he did.

00:21:08.607 –> 00:21:15.127
And so when you have that project champion that’s part of the client, that’s when they’re most successful.

00:21:15.358 –> 00:21:25.518
Mark Barga: It’s interesting that that comes full circle back to our conversation about to what degree should a school reflect the community, and to what degree should it be a catalyst for change?

00:21:25.818 –> 00:21:38.928
Now you’re describing a project and a district who, despite their own more conventional educational pedigrees, are using the design process as a catalyst for growth and progress which is remarkable.

00:21:39.148 –> 00:21:49.728
Larry Levato: Yeah, from an architecture aspect, from a per- professional aspect on my side, it’s probably the most gratifying besides watching kids walk into that building on the first day.

00:21:54.948 –> 00:21:59.678
You know, when we work with schools at K12, it’s not just about furniture or design, it’s about impact.

00:21:59.958 –> 00:22:04.048
Our radically student-centered approach puts students at the center of every decision.

00:22:04.428 –> 00:22:12.458
From that first conversation to the final walkthrough, we’re focused on creating spaces that actually work for the kids, the teachers, and the community.

00:22:12.778 –> 00:22:16.518
So if you’re looking to do more than just check a box on your next project, let’s talk.

00:22:16.838 –> 00:22:26.628
Visit k12.com, that’s K-A-Y-T-W-E-L-V-E.com, and see how we’re helping schools transform learning one student at a time.

00:22:27.128 –> 00:22:31.148
Because at K12, it’s not just about projects and furniture, it’s about purpose.

00:22:36.283 –> 00:22:40.503
Mark Barga: let me jump m-more towards questions that may be a little bit more reflective for you, Larry.

00:22:40.880 –> 00:22:42.780
you’ve opened many schools, right?

00:22:43.150 –> 00:22:46.100
You’ve been a part of or led many school projects.

00:22:46.883 –> 00:22:48.843
After several years pass, right?

00:22:48.863 –> 00:22:53.443
And you know, the, the dust has settled, the ribbons have been cut, the schools are fully operational.

00:22:53.755 –> 00:23:04.591
You go back, you check in, you’re still, you’re still working for the district perhaps How do you, Larry Levato, assess the success of a school project?

00:23:04.591 –> 00:23:06.451
What’s, what’s on your rubric?

00:23:06.461 –> 00:23:13.911
What are the metrics that matter to you as an architect when you think about whether or not a project was, quote-unquote, “successful”?

00:23:13.911 –> 00:23:15.931
And we’ll leave that definition open-ended for you.

00:23:15.951 –> 00:23:16.871
How do you view that?

00:23:16.951 –> 00:23:29.675
Larry Levato: In our architecture world, K to 12 market that we’re in, the conversations are it has to be adaptable, has to be flexible, It, it has to allow our staff and our students to thrive and flourish.

00:23:29.995 –> 00:23:31.965
It has to raise the bar for all of them.

00:23:32.535 –> 00:23:38.825
Student, student performance, staff performance, staff achievement, s- you know, all, all of those.

00:23:38.855 –> 00:23:42.535
And, and there’s a, a whole series of buzzwords that go with that conversation.

00:23:42.681 –> 00:23:45.251
flexibility and 21st century.

00:23:45.541 –> 00:23:48.111
Well, well, we’re t- 2026, right?

00:23:48.481 –> 00:23:50.201
and, and I was just back in this school.

00:23:50.283 –> 00:23:59.396
I w- I went in for, a- an alumni thing or a, um, a education foundation, uh, that we support, and I went into an event, and they had some student ambassadors.

00:23:59.686 –> 00:24:01.962
I, I don’t know these students, and they don’t know me.

00:24:01.962 –> 00:24:04.732
And I walk in the door, and they’re like, “Hey, thank you for coming.

00:24:04.732 –> 00:24:08.092
We really appreciate all the support you’re doing for the education foundation.

00:24:08.572 –> 00:24:14.912
Would you like a building tour?” And I’m like, “Sure.” I said, “Is there something you wanna know about the building?”

00:24:15.222 –> 00:24:15.952
And they’re like, “Why?

00:24:15.962 –> 00:24:27.492
Have you been here before?” I said, “Yeah, I, I spent eight and a half years of my life working on this building so that you had an environment.” They’re like, “Oh, well, you’re the architect.” I said, “Well, I was one of a team.

00:24:28.112 –> 00:24:31.362
But I, I can show you where the roof access ladder is.

00:24:31.362 –> 00:24:34.012
I can show you where all the hidden secrets are.”

00:24:34.372 –> 00:24:45.150
I said, “But more so, I wanna see how you’re using your environment because what we designed and what we talked about pre-COVID could be used differently now.

00:24:45.820 –> 00:25:00.696
And what we planned and what we thought would be, your staff has now had four or five years to work in that environment and adapt those uses and really make it that flexible- place that they can educate and perform in.

00:25:01.146 –> 00:25:06.816
So as we walked around the school, I’m like, “Oh, well, this space, this was the conversation.

00:25:07.246 –> 00:25:23.429
This is awesome seeing it being used this way.” And he goes, “Well, we also do this, and we do this, and we do this with it.” I explained to him about all the conversations, media center, art, We, we did a huge STEM STEAM lab, it, outside of all the sciences.

00:25:23.799 –> 00:25:25.069
I’m like, “Let me ask you a question.

00:25:25.329 –> 00:25:28.029
Are all those garage doors open on a daily basis?

00:25:28.069 –> 00:25:32.239
Are they coming out into the environment?” “Oh, we just did an egg-drop contest.

00:25:32.239 –> 00:25:37.239
We had, we had, uh, science curriculum was presenting on the social stair.

00:25:37.569 –> 00:25:40.559
We had students around them engaged in the conversation.

00:25:40.769 –> 00:25:46.929
We even actually brought up the eighth graders ’cause they’re coming here next year, so they can see how this environment’s performing.”

00:25:47.639 –> 00:25:50.769
So to see that, that’s success to me.

00:25:50.939 –> 00:25:51.329
Right?

00:25:51.679 –> 00:25:55.509
They have adapted that environment for their use.

00:25:56.079 –> 00:25:59.519
Um, and the environment was flexible enough to allow them to do that.

00:25:59.899 –> 00:26:04.751
That was just… I walked out of there, you know, a foot taller, chest pumped up, right?

00:26:06.041 –> 00:26:06.431
Really

00:26:06.541 –> 00:26:09.154
puffed out and, th- that was huge to me.

00:26:09.794 –> 00:26:18.124
And, and then I get, “Hey, great job on this building.” And they were like, “Thank you for spending so much time in this environment.

00:26:18.904 –> 00:26:23.734
I am an introvert, and I wouldn’t thrive in the normal environment.

00:26:24.074 –> 00:26:41.734
This gave me opportunity to go out and find what was me.” And so they went from that 30-seats-in-a-classroom approach to education to now individualized training plans with their students so that each student can thrive in their own process.

00:26:42.024 –> 00:26:42.104
That’s wild.

00:26:42.144 –> 00:26:49.574
And they, and they gave the flexibility to the staff to be able to guide those students on their journeys.

00:26:49.884 –> 00:26:51.804
That was probably the best day I’ve had this year.

00:26:51.887 –> 00:26:57.670
Mark Barga: That seems to me like a great definition of success right there as you articulated it, and remarkable work.

00:26:57.680 –> 00:26:57.700
Yeah.

00:26:57.818 –> 00:27:00.558
speaking of being guided, right?

00:27:00.558 –> 00:27:07.188
I’m actually interested a little bit in your own journey as an architect within your professional community, right?

00:27:07.488 –> 00:27:12.158
So as our audience will know, you’re actively involved in A4LE leadership.

00:27:12.351 –> 00:27:15.971
I actually would like to take this opportunity to talk a little bit about that, right?

00:27:16.161 –> 00:27:18.311
And I wanna ask something really specific, right?

00:27:18.311 –> 00:27:27.392
We know that this is a rich community of forward-thinking designers and educators and furniture companies and, and people who have really invested in better student outcomes, better learning environments.

00:27:27.392 –> 00:27:41.159
But what have you specifically as an architect learned from your peers in this association that you feel like has really helped you grow, flourish, become more inquisitive, become more curious as an architect?

00:27:41.365 –> 00:27:41.685
Larry Levato: Yep.

00:27:41.895 –> 00:27:47.925
Um, So ah, gosh, I think 18 years now, uh, that I’ve been part of the association.

00:27:48.156 –> 00:27:50.046
I got pulled to a conference, let’s go.

00:27:50.489 –> 00:28:00.629
really eye-opening to the conversations, especially when I was, you know, what, eight, eight years into my education journey, if you will, in, in, in educational architecture.

00:28:00.927 –> 00:28:05.937
I started volunteering because I wanted to be involved more at the conferences, at the regional level.

00:28:06.426 –> 00:28:12.698
then you’re interacting with like you said, there’s a whole spectrum of, of people in the community.

00:28:12.708 –> 00:28:14.228
It’s not just architects.

00:28:14.360 –> 00:28:20.202
There, there’s educators, that are looking for, um, that value and, and, and those conversations.

00:28:20.442 –> 00:28:23.502
that was a huge m- mentoring piece for me.

00:28:24.162 –> 00:28:34.881
There’s people who have been in the association, for years that have really, um, uh, allowed my growth to happen.

00:28:34.881 –> 00:28:38.133
They’ve mentored me, specifically, personally.

00:28:38.313 –> 00:28:46.163
It’s like, “Hey, we should get together and collaborate on this, or at least talk about this.” And they could be an architect from another state.

00:28:46.723 –> 00:28:51.613
They could be competition, um, i- i- in the world of the professional world.

00:28:51.719 –> 00:28:58.079
the collaboration and the exchange of ideas and the exchange of thoughts has been paramount in my growth.

00:28:58.319 –> 00:28:59.169
I relish that.

00:28:59.241 –> 00:29:02.361
I enjoy their successes as much as ours.

00:29:02.491 –> 00:29:04.821
again, it’s about the educational environment.

00:29:05.376 –> 00:29:09.716
I got involved with, uh, obviously volunteering in the northeast region.

00:29:09.786 –> 00:29:11.386
I went up through their leadership.

00:29:11.556 –> 00:29:23.678
Um, I had a couple people pull me and say, “You need to do this.” and then when you get up through, you know, the leadership role, you realize that you’re now been around for a while, so you’re that, that sage.

00:29:23.688 –> 00:29:29.678
You’re that voice of the history of how we got from A to B over the last 10 or 15 years.

00:29:29.978 –> 00:29:31.758
You’re one of those voices, right?

00:29:32.066 –> 00:29:34.576
and we’re still having that thought exchange and that idea.

00:29:34.576 –> 00:29:35.806
What, what are we doing now?

00:29:35.806 –> 00:29:37.316
What, what are we experiencing?

00:29:37.737 –> 00:29:41.537
I get, “Hey, we think you might be a good fit for the global board.”

00:29:42.457 –> 00:29:46.447
I said, “Okay.” So I pick up the phone, call one of my peers.

00:29:46.578 –> 00:29:47.488
He’s a competitor.

00:29:48.188 –> 00:29:53.948
And I said, “What am I getting into? What does this mean?” You know, I go back and have the conversation with my wife.

00:29:54.348 –> 00:29:56.638
I have the conversation with my family.

00:29:57.308 –> 00:29:59.068
I have it with my employer.

00:29:59.508 –> 00:30:05.538
Like, I have this opportunity, and I get nothing but 100%, “You, you should do this.

00:30:05.908 –> 00:30:06.748
Go all in.

00:30:06.758 –> 00:30:09.238
You go, uh, all in for everything you wanna do.

00:30:10.078 –> 00:30:11.308
Go get involved.

00:30:11.338 –> 00:30:30.485
Go be and, and work in that mentoring role for others.” partway through that journey, they’re like, “Hey, we want you to be… Would you consider being on the
executive board?” Really strategically thinking about what the association is doing, where it’s going, how do we grow membership, how do we get more educators involved?

00:30:31.355 –> 00:30:33.325
Are we having the right conversations?

00:30:33.415 –> 00:30:35.355
That, that’s big picture thinking.

00:30:35.519 –> 00:30:37.989
it’s exhilarating being part of that process.

00:30:38.279 –> 00:30:48.269
Um, so that’s really been, uh, that, that catalyst, that, that for me- is my education didn’t stop when I walked out of college out of architecture school.

00:30:48.739 –> 00:30:55.659
I’ve been able to grow that for the last 27 years, and I did the same thing with a, a reserve military career for 21.

00:30:55.689 –> 00:31:05.207
And, the, the conversations, the interactions, I, I just think that’s really kind of provided me with that education component.

00:31:05.207 –> 00:31:07.847
Keep learning as you go, ’cause you never stop learning.

00:31:08.327 –> 00:31:11.497
Um, so I, I think that’s been my, the biggest part of my journey.

00:31:11.765 –> 00:31:13.835
Mark Barga: Well, let’s, let’s take it full circle here.

00:31:13.835 –> 00:31:24.249
So in, in, in the office in which we sit, you’re surrounded by incredible young architects and designers and project managers, technical experts, big thinkers.

00:31:24.269 –> 00:31:25.519
You’re surrounded by everybody.

00:31:25.867 –> 00:31:36.027
what advice might you offer to young architects, young interior designers, young educational furniture professionals who really wanna grow and thrive?

00:31:36.186 –> 00:31:38.736
what are some pointers that you might give them as they begin their journeys?

00:31:38.878 –> 00:31:48.018
Larry Levato: Yeah, all, all too often, and, and especially in the architecture side of this and probably interiors, uh, to, to a degree, we come out and we have a vision, you know?

00:31:48.214 –> 00:31:50.554
I grew up and I wanted to be a residential architect.

00:31:51.324 –> 00:31:54.084
Um, didn’t realize those other pathways were there.

00:31:54.525 –> 00:31:59.615
we have a, a staff here, they’ve invested in our journey currently.

00:32:00.135 –> 00:32:01.885
It may not be their total journey.

00:32:01.885 –> 00:32:03.855
They may move on to other avenues.

00:32:03.855 –> 00:32:06.385
They may wanna practice a different type of architecture.

00:32:06.790 –> 00:32:13.030
so we’ve created an, an organic mentoring process, so that they can grow.

00:32:13.450 –> 00:32:16.980
we meet with them, and we don’t just do a yearly employee review.

00:32:16.990 –> 00:32:18.550
We meet with them often.

00:32:19.006 –> 00:32:25.126
I laugh because I have an office, but I’m not in there probably 30, 40 minutes a day because I’m out in the staff.

00:32:25.826 –> 00:32:28.406
I wanna know what they’re experiencing.

00:32:28.466 –> 00:32:30.916
I wanna know where their frustrations are.

00:32:31.436 –> 00:32:41.226
I wanna offer them some guidance, but I more so wanna listen to see if there’s something we can do to adjust that for them so that they can grow and thrive, and they wanna be here.

00:32:41.467 –> 00:32:44.387
We have a number of staff that, that, that do that same thing.

00:32:44.711 –> 00:32:52.451
and I think those conversations are really, quote, if you will, legacy to them, it… that I can leave to them.

00:32:52.811 –> 00:32:54.871
Like, my door is always open.

00:32:55.242 –> 00:32:59.042
they’re probably gonna wear the carpet out in front of my office getting to my office.

00:32:59.242 –> 00:32:59.832
That’s great.

00:32:59.872 –> 00:33:01.962
I welcome that, and it’s okay.

00:33:01.962 –> 00:33:03.092
I’ll get my stuff done.

00:33:03.255 –> 00:33:04.345
I always manage, right?

00:33:04.400 –> 00:33:06.459
But I welcome those conversations.

00:33:07.419 –> 00:33:09.149
I wanna know ’em on a personal level.

00:33:09.259 –> 00:33:10.889
It’s not just a work environment.

00:33:11.389 –> 00:33:21.660
Everybody has stuff outside of here, and if I know what’s going on out there a little bit- I can be a little bit more receptive to their performance here and where I need to take them or guide them.

00:33:21.950 –> 00:33:28.290
and I think those conversations are, are the biggest part of my day, um, and, and something I focus on.

00:33:28.300 –> 00:33:32.141
I think that staff, they deserve the guiding that I had.

00:33:32.310 –> 00:33:33.700
hopefully I can do it better.

00:33:34.243 –> 00:33:36.243
there’s some interesting conversations there.

00:33:36.243 –> 00:33:41.163
There’s some ins- especially in an age, um, a, a- an age difference.

00:33:41.369 –> 00:33:42.359
I’m not young anymore.

00:33:42.663 –> 00:33:48.703
but hearing their conversations and their enthusiasm, we have to lift that enthusiasm and capture it.

00:33:48.753 –> 00:33:49.743
We don’t wanna bury it.

00:33:49.833 –> 00:33:51.133
We don’t wanna quell it.

00:33:51.183 –> 00:33:58.823
We don’t wanna push it down because they have some great ideas, and technology-wise, they’re still reading.

00:33:58.833 –> 00:33:59.693
They’re still learning.

00:33:59.703 –> 00:34:03.733
They’re still yearning for that, that, “Hey, did you, did you see this?

00:34:03.733 –> 00:34:05.333
Did you… Have you experienced this?

00:34:05.653 –> 00:34:06.663
Have you guys done this?

00:34:06.683 –> 00:34:17.088
Can we do this?” That’s where our office is, and that’s, uh, I, I can’t say enough about that, that process here and, and where it’s taken me and allowed me to be in that role.

00:34:17.470 –> 00:34:26.700
Mark Barga: Well, I think mentorship as a broad category, being a guide is something that can, It, can go so well and it can go so poorly, right?

00:34:26.700 –> 00:34:32.370
As we know the best mentors, they don’t do it for the, the, the up-and-comers.

00:34:32.630 –> 00:34:48.970
They simply talk about the terrain and the landscape ahead and talk about what may be out there and let folks learn, and it’s an iterative process,
right, where they’re workshopping ideas and they’re learning from mistakes.And I think that that’s the type of culture that I think you exude.

00:34:49.070 –> 00:34:50.530
Larry Levato: this whole office has done that

00:34:51.354 –> 00:35:05.281
That client appro- oriented approach to, uh, our work, we really talk to our staff about what that means, what that means to them, so that, yeah, th- there’s gonna be different, difficult conversations.

00:35:05.311 –> 00:35:07.601
There’s gonna be challenges.

00:35:07.611 –> 00:35:17.080
There’s no doubt that there’s gonna be unhappy clients at some point, unhappy school board or unhappy principal that we didn’t listen, we didn’t do it right.

00:35:17.295 –> 00:35:18.825
there’s ways to approach that.

00:35:18.835 –> 00:35:25.925
There’s ways to have those conversations and understand it’s, it’s not a personal thing.

00:35:26.098 –> 00:35:27.288
it’s a growth thing.

00:35:27.288 –> 00:35:35.897
So take advantage of that operation or that, that conversation and see if you can change that conversation for the positives in it.

00:35:36.077 –> 00:35:38.387
There’s always positives in everything that we do.

00:35:38.550 –> 00:35:51.757
you gotta look at, for those, um, and I think if you teach your staff that and mentor the staff to do that, it gives the a- avenue like, “Hey, this isn’t the first time we’ve been doing this.

00:35:51.933 –> 00:35:53.333
We’ve done it for 40 years.

00:35:53.543 –> 00:35:58.643
In 40 years with hundreds or thousands of clients, we’ve had upset clients.”

00:35:58.969 –> 00:36:00.879
It’s a matter of how we approach them.

00:36:00.959 –> 00:36:08.949
Why do we still have the very first client that ever did an education project in the ’90s with us is still our client to this day?

00:36:09.297 –> 00:36:13.077
Because we’ve gone back and said, “Hey, we can do this better.

00:36:13.537 –> 00:36:15.157
Let’s have the hard conversation.

00:36:15.527 –> 00:36:16.647
We’re here for you.

00:36:16.967 –> 00:36:18.917
We’re here for that school.

00:36:19.077 –> 00:36:20.367
We’re here for that district.”

00:36:20.841 –> 00:36:27.772
Mark Barga: On the educational side, I can really relate to that, to the type of environment that allows critical reflection, right?

00:36:27.802 –> 00:36:37.282
And as an educational practitioner, folks might come in and watch me teach and come away and think, “Oh, you know, that was a really effective and engaging experience.”

00:36:37.282 –> 00:36:55.342
And, and meanwhile, my perspective was, “Oh my, I, I made mistakes every three minutes. I did something wrong. I could have done everything better.” And that type of
culture, uh to promote, you know, a critical self-awareness, I think is really amazing and and especially for young architects and designers to grow in that environment.

00:36:55.409 –> 00:37:04.017
Larry Levato: And, and then going back and having conversations and seeing that environment and how it’s either working or not, or, you know, hearing that feedback.

00:37:04.294 –> 00:37:10.868
and I get it, all the schools I go back and, and, and, and take other clients through, I welcome those conversations.

00:37:11.358 –> 00:37:13.258
Not everything is perfect.

00:37:13.918 –> 00:37:18.068
but the conversations at the time kinda dictated what we did if we listen properly.

00:37:18.363 –> 00:37:19.933
does it fit every environment?

00:37:19.963 –> 00:37:22.113
Now, there, there, there could be some changes.

00:37:22.113 –> 00:37:25.733
There could be some… There’s definitely room for growth in everything that we do.

00:37:26.027 –> 00:37:28.437
then are you receptive to those conversations?

00:37:29.297 –> 00:37:37.047
Mark Barga: Well, let, let me close by asking you a little bit about how you view or, or hope to, uh, view your legacy, right?

00:37:37.047 –> 00:37:40.137
So I mean, both in architecture and in A4LE, right?

00:37:40.137 –> 00:37:47.457
I mean when you, when you hang it up, you know, down the road, you know, what, what’s the impact that you hope to have left behind you, right?

00:37:47.913 –> 00:37:52.012
Larry Levato: broad brush strokes, did I leave it better than when I started?

00:37:52.322 –> 00:37:55.002
in my roles in A4LE, they’re fast-hitting.

00:37:55.012 –> 00:37:59.232
Y- you’re in leadership for a year or two or three, then you move on to something else.

00:37:59.312 –> 00:38:00.542
did you improve upon it?

00:38:00.849 –> 00:38:06.089
if you set some goals, and set realistic goals, and you gotta set some har- hard-reaching goals.

00:38:06.231 –> 00:38:18.181
don’t just come in with easy goals like, “Yeah, I can achieve that.” I’ll feel better, but you set those hard goals, and you work on them and work on them, and if you can get to a couple of them, fantastic.

00:38:18.504 –> 00:38:25.307
but I, I, I think that, that so-called legacy piece, I don’t think of that in, in my terms.

00:38:25.307 –> 00:38:26.037
That’s not me.

00:38:26.037 –> 00:38:27.797
I’m pretty selfless.

00:38:27.867 –> 00:38:29.547
I, I’m, I’m not that person.

00:38:30.147 –> 00:38:44.736
But if, if I can influence and improve upon somebody else’s career projection, where they’re going, what they’ve been exposed to, meet some of their goals, listen to some of their concerns, Let them take the reins.

00:38:44.766 –> 00:38:46.236
Let them go to the board meetings.

00:38:46.236 –> 00:38:47.716
Let them present to the client.

00:38:48.000 –> 00:38:49.320
Hey, I’m right here next to you.

00:38:50.070 –> 00:38:58.500
Uh, the old guy in the office is sitting right here, right next to you, so if there’s a hard question, just say, ‘Hey, can you help me out with this?'” That, there’s no harm and foul doing that.

00:38:59.090 –> 00:39:06.580
It’s, that board has an understanding that Larry’s here for a reason or that that senior leadership is there for a reason.

00:39:07.120 –> 00:39:16.220
Um, but let this project manager grow and learn, and, and have those conversations so that they’re really providing us with a better environment.

00:39:16.394 –> 00:39:23.177
that’s where I thrive and that, I- if, if I can leave it better than when I started, that, that’s my long-term goal.

00:39:24.391 –> 00:39:26.861
Mark Barga: Larry, it’s been an absolute pleasure speaking with you today.

00:39:26.861 –> 00:39:27.951
Thank you for making the time.

00:39:28.077 –> 00:39:29.317
Larry Levato: Mark, Mark, appreciate it.

00:39:29.367 –> 00:39:32.547
I know it’s been a while on coming, uh, to, to get me to the microphone.

00:39:32.696 –> 00:39:33.846
so I, I thank you.

00:39:34.266 –> 00:39:34.696
Mark Barga: Yes, sir.

00:39:36.258 –> 00:39:40.678
The Better Learning Podcast is produced by Matt Rogers and edited by Kelly Jones.

00:39:41.388 –> 00:39:50.788
The views and opinions shared on this podcast are those of the individuals speaking and do not necessarily represent the perspectives of their affiliated companies, organizations, or associations