Read Transcript:

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Jeff Kubiak: all right, everyone.

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I’m Jeff Kubiak with the Better Learning Podcast, and I’m so excited today to have a good friend of mine who is above and beyond brain power for most people.

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And the work she’s doing, I’m so excited to share because it does involve the architects, the designers, the school leaders, and so much more, but it’s Dr. Sabba Quidwai, and let’s let you introduce yourself and share what you’re doing.

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She is the CEO of Designing Schools.

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Sabba, thanks for being here.

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Dr. Sabba Quidwai: Aw, thanks so much for having me

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Jeff Kubiak: Oh, so excited.

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So why don’t you give us a little bit of a… Take us on a little tour of your, kind of your trek that brought you where you are today, because I think it’s so important that you’ve been into a lot of different fields that have helped curate where you are

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Dr. Sabba Quidwai: Yeah, definitely.

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I always say I think one of the things that’s so interesting for me at this moment is I come to this work– I mean, I’ve had many roles,
but I feel like I come to this work really from the lens of a learner, like a student, like a graduate, somebody navigating that time.

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Because as I reflect back, I don’t know how this ended up happening, but I graduated during like two really big like world crises, big like shifts, kind of like how we’re seeing right now.

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And both of them were completely different.

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So the first one, when I graduated my undergrad, I was- started as a high school history teacher, 2007, and couple months later, I’m sure many people remember, was the recession.

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So like with my first job came my first layoff notice.

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So it’s really interesting to even just read a lot of the commentary today around entry-level jobs and layoffs and whatnot, as if it’s like something brand new.

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But I think, you know, with each iteration, as time has gone on, I think in general it has become harder and harder and harder, and now it’s just so in our faces you can’t ignore it anymore.

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So first job, first layoff notice.

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And what was so interesting about 2007 when you reflect back is it was the year the iPhone came out.

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And I think, you know, back then, if some- if people had told us like, “Oh, people are gonna be like do be these like YouTube influencers, and we’re gonna be like using social media in
this way, and we’re gonna be communicating and working mobile and doing…” It would have sounded so crazy and just so out there that we like– Or, “The app economy is gonna do XYZ.”

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Like even that term, like the app economy, today we go through a gazillion apps in a day without even thinking twice.

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So it’s interesting over time how technology normalizes, whereas back then I knew nothing about technology.

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Like I had no clue what people were building.

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I had no clue about anything at all.

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All I knew was like there was a group of people over here making a ton of money, and then there was me and a bunch of other people losing homes, losing jobs, all these other kinds of things.

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Again, similar to what you see today, but at scale today, I think.

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And then, you know, fast-forward a couple years, I obviously learned more about technology, the role it could play, and it, and it had a really big, you know, impact on my life, not only in terms
of what I was able to bring to the kids in my classroom, as like voice and getting them to express themselves in different ways and how it strengthened thinking and all of those other pieces.

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But for myself, like I feel, I always say like Technology gave my kids like a voice to share how they were learning, but it gave me a voice to share who I am and, and what I was interested in too.

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Those– It was like the simultaneously both things happening, and I feel like getting more into speaking, getting more into sharing ideas, these were
things that I just was not able to effectively do, I think, on paper or as a writer, but I was good at doing via video and audio and things like that.

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And so, you know, that led to like, you know, working at USC for a couple of years doing one-to-one iPad stuff there.

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But then obviously Apple was really like the big moment for me because as a high school history teacher, you think you’re gonna be in a classroom your whole life, you know?

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Like I remember in 2007 when I graduated, I decorated that place like it was my forever home, and, you know, to take all of that down just a couple months later, it just– it, it’s, it’s jarring.

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And so when I went to Apple, it was like, wow, like how, how come nobody… Like how did this happen?

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And that’s really when I became more interested in the research and going back.

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Like I think I just had some flexibility of time as well to go back and be like, “Okay, I wanna like study more.” Like how– like why do we graduate so unprepared?

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How come nobody tells us these things?

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And, and we knew at that time AI was going to be the next big shift.

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I had read a really good book in 2014 called “The Second Machine Age,” and I love the last line.

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The last line was: “Technology is not destiny. We shape our destiny.” And you can say over the last decade, I’ve become really obsessed with that question.

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Yeah, how do we shape our destiny?

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And a big part of that is how do we have agency over our own lives?

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So the second time I graduated in 2020, totally different, right?

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But again, pandemic.

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I went to school in 2017, so I didn’t plan to graduate during a crisis.

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But in 2020, we had the pandemic.

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But it wasn’t just the pandemic, it was remote work.

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So again, you have this huge shift, except that time, because my own knowledge about technology and the world and everything was there, even though my school didn’t d- give it to me per se, I was able to figure it out on my own.

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And I think that’s the big thing we try to put in front of people today is don’t wait for organizations and places to tell you what’s coming.

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be the person who knows how to look at your own self, your own environment and, and kind of figure it out what’s gonna work for you.

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Jeff Kubiak: Yeah.

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Yeah, that’s, that’s powerful.

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So the Better Learning Podcast, um, is the official podcast for the organization called A4LE, the Association for Learning Environments.

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And so we have builders, architects, designers, interior people, um, facilities, business officials, school officials, leaders, teachers.

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And so give us, Dr. Sabba Quidwai was, what is one thing that gives you hope about the future of education?

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Dr. Sabba Quidwai: Ooh.

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You know, okay, so I’m gonna tell you a story about a district that we just worked with because I think if you want hope, you need to go visit some schools.

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Like, you need to get out of the news, out of social media, and you need to go visit some schools and watch what people are doing with real people.

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You have all the hope in the world that you need.

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And I always say I’m, I’m really grateful to have had that experience because it definitely drives a lot of my optimism.

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So we just worked with a district, uh, Roseville Joint Union High School District, and the assistant superintendent, Dr. Karoz, um, and her team
brought together like a design team, and it consisted of students, of educators, of counselors, of, um, board members, of, uh, teachers, principals.

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The, the, all your stakeholders were, were present in this.

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And not only did we have this design team, we did a bunch of surveys and focus groups, but they had two goals.

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Number one, they wanted to build a profile of a graduate.

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Now, very common.

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We see profiles of a graduate all over the place.

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However, what made their profile a little bit unique was as they looked at those qualities and capabilities and characteristics, they did a bunch of work to land on which qualities and characteristics they wanted.

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But once they landed on those c- characteristics, they looked at what does it look like to exemplify that quality with people?

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So, for example, what does it mean to practice communication, collaboration, advocacy with people, and what does it mean to practice the skill set with AI?

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And so being able to have that dual lens with which to look through, what kind of learners do we wanna be?

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And also keeping in mind that these were not characteristics just for students, this was for the community.

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So how do we interact with people?

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How do we interact with AI?

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And then how do we measure those things?

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How do we– what are we seeing that tells us we’re, we’re going in the right direction?

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What are we hearing to let us know that we, that yes, these qualities are being developed?

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And, and what are people producing?

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And so it was this really beautiful intersection over just three sessions, three half-hour days, is as how long it took to do this work.

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So a lot of times people think, like, we need hours and hours and hours and months and months and months.

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Three half-hour days of just good quality conversation, extracting all of this.

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And, and it’s just one of the things that was so awesome was when they were doing their final reflections.

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In the beginning, so many of them had walked in with anxiety, frustration, thinking AI was cheating, but they all left with, in their words, hope.

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And their message– we had this kind of like final– we did a lot of videos and things because they’re launching it this coming school year.

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And one of their biggest messages was create more hope.

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Like, stop talking about all the things that are gonna go wrong, and let’s start telling people the things that can go right and build towards what can go right.

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And to see that message come from the students and just to hear, I think, I think being able to h- those different groups, stakeholders, being able to hear the different perspectives, it was so refreshing and so enlightening.

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But you could just see it in their faces and their experiences and their interactions, how much of a difference it makes when we don’t decide in silos and instead we design with people.

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Jeff Kubiak: Oh, I love that.

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So these amazing students, I’m hoping all four grades were included.

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And so did they apply?

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How were they chosen?

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Lottery

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Dr. Sabba Quidwai: Yeah.

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It was, um, I think the superintendent was the one who kind of worked to put those different groups together, um, and kind of decide who was gonna be there.

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It was funny, one person, um, she actually was a– She was subbing for another person that day, and she wasn’t on the original list, but she had come in for one of the sessions.

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And at the end of it– And she was very anti-AI, like very, very, very anti-AI.

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And by the end of it, the end of that first session, she was like: “Can I come back?” She was like, uh, she’s like: “I need to be invited back.” And not only w- did she come to the remaining sessions, she then started leading the work at her site.

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And this is another really beautiful thing.

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A lot of the kids were on their school site council, and if they weren’t, they were like: “Oh, I’m gonna take this back to my site.

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Can you share your slides so we can go over that?” Or they’ll be like: “Oh, once you have the data that you collected, can you give us a summary so we can go back and share it at our sites?”

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So it was really interesting to kind of see some of those things being asked for because one of the words that they landed on in their
profile, this was the one word that unanimously across all surveys, stakeholders, every person had a different angle on, was advocacy.

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So it’s just really beautiful, I think, to be able to bring people together.

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I think we live in a– I, I think right now the biggest, uh, challenge that I see is we work too much off of assumptions.

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And I can’t remember who said it, but there was somebody who had a quote that said: “Assumptions are like termites to a relationship.” And I think I see a lot of that right now.

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I think there’s just so many assumptions, and I think bit by bit by bit, relationships are eroding, trust is eroding on, on, on multiple things, not just in education, I think in multiple systems.

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Um, and I think the easiest solution is it sounds so simple, and it’s like free, but you just need to get together in a room and talk to each other.

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And I think it really helps if you have a facilitator to come in and, and guide that conversation.

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Jeff Kubiak: Well, I think one of the things that was guiding you, especially w- not only having the growth mindset and capacity, but was some of the work that, um, Brene Brown has done with that wonderful four-letter word, and you had posted about it.

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So why don’t you share with us kinda how your Roseville Joint Union ended, but also the, the transformation of that word?

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Dr. Sabba Quidwai: Yeah.

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It was really interesting because at that, at, during like these last couple of months, so we just did this over the last like I think three,
three and a half months, and one of the things that you also see in parallel happening was, you know, you had people like Reese Witherspoon.

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I think she was the big one for me ’cause like she has no interest in AI.

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She doesn’t own an AI company.

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She wasn’t being paid by anyone to say anything.

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Um, but she posted something in her book club on Instagram, and she was like, “How, what are people thinking about AI?” She’s like, “Have women…” She’s like, “I asked my book club, and many of them were like, ‘Oh, we haven’t done anything.'”

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So she’s like, “I think we should learn together.” She’s like, “You know, I see all my friends talking about it,” my guy friends she was saying, “talking about AI.

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I, I think as women, we should learn about it.” And the backlash that she got was unbelievable.

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Like it was shocking.

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Like I, I think a lot of people were really shocked.

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She got so much backlash, but she didn’t apologize for it.

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She’s like, “Look, I’m gonna learn.” She’s like, “I’m curious.

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This is here in our world.

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If you wanna learn with me, learn with me,” and kinda like, “If you don’t, then don’t.

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You know, you do you.” And like she wasn’t the only person.

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Now, there was another person, I think Mel Robbins, but Mel Robbins was doing a sponsored post for co- for, for Microsoft, so I think, you know, you can kind of add that.

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But Reese Witherspoon was not.

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So that was one thing.

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I was just like, “Wow,” like why are so many people so angry?

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And then the second thing, I think this one really, really, really I think struck a nerve with me, was watching the students boo speakers at AI graduations.

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And not all of them.

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So it was interesting.

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Like it, it was basically just, I don’t even have an answer to this yet, so I’m rambling now ’cause I’m thinking out loud.

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But the one thing that made me think about, I started to think about what do people who are curious about AI, because there, there is a bit of
an assumption I think that if you’re curious about AI then you are, are, are blind to all the challenges and whatnot, and this is very untrue.

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You know?

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I can, like I am equally as excited about AI as I am afraid.

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And I always say the hardest thing right now is to hold both emotions.

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We can be excited and also deeply fearful, but if you are only fearful, what I’ve come to realize is the difference between people who are leaning in versus those who
are opting out is the people leaning in, and this is just my hypothesis, I believe have agency At– in, in some way, shape, or form, we believe we can make a difference.

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We believe we can shape this.

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We believe we have a voice.

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We believe if we get involved, we can design things, we can create things, we can… Even if you look at me and my little world, just by me leaning in, I get to work with incredible school leaders and people to do things like the example of Roseville, right?

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By opting out and saying, “Hey, all these bad things are gonna happen, and these are all the things, and these are reasons why we should protest,” what does that get anybody?

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What is that gonna get anyone?

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It’s moving ahead with or without you.

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And so we kinda say it can move ahead by design, where we collectively come together and design it, or it’s gonna move ahead by default.

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And you get a say in one of those.

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Might not be exactly what you want, but this is what I’ve started to learn, is that people that are leaning in have agency.

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And if you look at where does agency come from, it comes from hope.

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It comes from you believe you can do something about something, because you’re hopeful for a future.

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You don’t know what that outcome is gonna be, but you have hope that you can impact something in some way.

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and so that’s when I started researching and I learned hope is not an emotion.

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I used to think it was just a feeling, but it’s not.

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Brene Brown has incredible research about how it’s a cognitive skill, about how it’s an entire thinking process you develop.

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So again, at a time when people are so upset about critical thinking and people aren’t thinking, how– I don’t feel like we’re leaning into what thinking even means, because it’s definitely not writing a five-paragraph essay, you know?

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But if you lean into hope as a method of thinking, how do we teach hope as a cognitive process of thinking?

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Now you’re, like, looking at just, like, being a human, I think, on, on a very, very, very different level.

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And, and we talk a lot, you know, about, like, wellbeing and, you know, all these other words that are out there.

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But I’ve really started to observe, like, we don’t get granular enough into what we actually want it to like.

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What do we wanna see?

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What do we wanna hear?

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What do we want being produced to tell us, “Hey, yeah, we’re, we’re on the right track”?

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Jeff Kubiak: Exactly.

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Exactly.

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And that, that leads me to, you know, you’re talking about, um, some of the schools and, you know, Roys- Roseville has some neat projects going on.

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And so with all that you’re doing and all that you’ve seen, what are some trends or innovations in school designs that really excite you the most?

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‘Cause I mean, you’ve, you’ve been to some, um, several countries right now that are, I would say are much more cutting edge than what we’re doing

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Dr. Sabba Quidwai: Yeah.

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You know, I would say across the board, I don’t know that, like, anyone’s, like, more cutting edge than, say, like, another person.

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What I would say that I see consistent across the board is a courageous leader.

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It’s somebody who’s like, “I’m just gonna bring these people together and we’re gonna figure it out.”

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And what I would say that those people have in common is they invested in culture.

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I think this is– More than saying what’s innovative, I, I will pull out this one challenge because I think if you can lean into solving for this and you can lean into this gap and you can begin to close this gap, you will get that innovation piece regardless.

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Whereas if you only talk about the innovation but you don’t talk about this gap, I think it’s very hard to replicate what some of these people are doing.

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so that courageous leader brings people together and knows and has the relationships with people to bring them together to say, “Let’s figure this out.”

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Um, and one of the things that allows them to delegate some of that autonomy, to delegate some of those things is they have good culture and rapport.

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And so I think that culture piece, like what are our norms?

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What are our values?

00:16:37.913 –> 00:16:39.243
What are things we believe in?

00:16:39.243 –> 00:16:44.253
Like, I always say, if you don’t feel like your culture piece is there, get a story.

00:16:44.363 –> 00:16:45.873
Get a really strong story down.

00:16:45.873 –> 00:16:47.343
And your story is not AI.

00:16:47.693 –> 00:16:50.913
Your story is your community, what you believe.

00:16:51.083 –> 00:16:59.873
Like, you know, like you said, like builder, designer, architect, like the- these are, these are things we build, we create, not just in the physical sense, in the emotional sense as well.

00:17:00.323 –> 00:17:05.393
And, and the way you build in the emotional sense is, is, is through storytelling.

00:17:05.403 –> 00:17:09.223
And I think it’s one of the reasons why people bring you in for a keynote.

00:17:09.223 –> 00:17:10.113
Like what do they want?

00:17:10.113 –> 00:17:11.633
They want you to give your, their people a story.

00:17:11.933 –> 00:17:19.113
That as great as keynotes are, and like, you know, we love doing them, we love creating that motivation and inspiration, you need a story to follow it through.

00:17:19.493 –> 00:17:28.183
And so if you feel like the culture piece is weak, if you feel like there’s too many voices and narratives, like these people are saying this about AI, these people are feeling this way, you’ll always hear that.

00:17:28.313 –> 00:17:33.733
“Oh, I have these people and they love it, but these people over here this.” And it’s because those people have different stories.

00:17:33.993 –> 00:17:39.933
They’ve co-created their own from social media, from whatever they’re listening to, from whatever they’re around, their own lived experiences.

00:17:40.243 –> 00:17:49.673
And if you don’t bring them together under a shared narrative, that has nothing to do with AI, but has to do with your vision, your mission, and is usually already done for you mostly on your website

00:17:50.567 –> 00:17:50.967
Jeff Kubiak: Yep

00:17:51.037 –> 00:18:03.447
Dr. Sabba Quidwai: to put the pieces together and get that story in front of them and find a way to get your leaders, your principals, your building leaders, your site leaders, everyone to be integrating that narrative to work on some of those culture pieces.

00:18:03.447 –> 00:18:12.697
And I think once your culture pieces are intact, people– You can open up the door for let’s figure this out, and people have the agency to then be like, “Okay, well, I wanna work on this.

00:18:12.727 –> 00:18:13.417
I’m gonna do this.

00:18:13.747 –> 00:18:14.597
I’m doing this.

00:18:14.867 –> 00:18:16.257
Okay, this person’s doing this here.

00:18:16.267 –> 00:18:20.527
How do we share and scale this?” Um, I, I think you can have a bit more of that.

00:18:20.527 –> 00:18:21.447
So honestly, that’s what I see.

00:18:21.647 –> 00:18:24.337
I see everywhere I go, there’s just a leader who’s just like, “Let’s do this.

00:18:24.377 –> 00:18:27.989
We’re gonna figure it out, and we’re, we’re gonna, kinda charge ahead in this direction.

00:18:28.169 –> 00:18:30.619
And I’m gonna model, I’m gonna model my use.

00:18:30.619 –> 00:18:58.375
I’m gonna share those stories.” there’s another really great district, uh, that we work with, Community District High School 117 in, in Illinois, and the superintendent, um, did something called Gemini Jams, and it was basically these, like, we
put together, uh, five design challenges, like, like very quick, like five, 10-minute little challenges that you did over the course of an hour, and you could just sign up for either beginner, middle, or advanced, and the challenges kind of varied.

00:18:58.595 –> 00:19:01.345
And anybody who showed up, he got them a pro license.

00:19:03.653 –> 00:19:03.853
Jeff Kubiak: That’s

00:19:04.045 –> 00:19:05.335
Dr. Sabba Quidwai: But it wasn’t just like a sit and get.

00:19:05.335 –> 00:19:06.415
I think there was choice.

00:19:06.445 –> 00:19:07.635
There was what do you wanna learn?

00:19:07.805 –> 00:19:08.925
What track are you?

00:19:09.215 –> 00:19:10.725
It, it was really fun

00:19:15.929 –> 00:19:20.659
You know, when we work with schools at K12, it’s not just about furniture or design, it’s about impact.

00:19:20.939 –> 00:19:25.029
Our radically student-centered approach puts students at the center of every decision.

00:19:25.409 –> 00:19:33.439
From that first conversation to the final walkthrough, we’re focused on creating spaces that actually work for the kids, the teachers, and the community.

00:19:33.759 –> 00:19:37.499
So if you’re looking to do more than just check a box on your next project, let’s talk.

00:19:37.819 –> 00:19:47.609
Visit k12.com, that’s K-A-Y-T-W-E-L-V-E.com, and see how we’re helping schools transform learning one student at a time.

00:19:48.109 –> 00:19:52.129
Because at K12, it’s not just about projects and furniture, it’s about purpose.

00:19:57.358 –> 00:20:02.239
Jeff Kubiak: storytelling, or it, it’s an art, it’s a science, it’s intrinsic, it’s extrinsic.

00:20:02.509 –> 00:20:13.049
So, you know, you look at like our, our new musicians, you know, rap artists, country, it doesn’t matter, like they’re storytellers, and I think it’s powerful for us to teach that to our students.

00:20:13.059 –> 00:20:27.678
So if we were in, we walked in the doors of Dr. Sabba Quidwai’s School of Hope, what would you want to have for the graduate of 2045 in design?

00:20:27.698 –> 00:20:33.718
What, what should we be doing differently right now for that d- that graduate 20 plus years ahead?

00:20:34.245 –> 00:20:44.505
Dr. Sabba Quidwai: I will say I think agency is like, like it’s so easy to use these words, but we don’t realize how much like men- like mental muscle you need.

00:20:44.505 –> 00:20:52.175
I don’t even know if that’s a word, but like just like muscle you need from a mental perspective to actually have this skill.

00:20:52.365 –> 00:20:54.325
It’s really easy to be like, “Oh, just go have agency.

00:20:54.325 –> 00:20:55.165
Just go design this.

00:20:55.165 –> 00:21:01.215
Just go do this.” It’s like, again, if I take it back to I, I– One of, one of the things I love about your like, you know, you said you have builders, architects, all of this.

00:21:01.535 –> 00:21:05.105
You know, I- if you think about it, you do it in the physical sense and the emotional sense.

00:21:05.715 –> 00:21:11.405
And I think if you look at that parallel, if you look at the physical sense and you were to be like, “Oh yeah, just go build that building.”

00:21:11.765 –> 00:21:12.825
Like, okay, how?

00:21:12.835 –> 00:21:13.025
Why?

00:21:13.025 –> 00:21:21.045
Just because I’ve got some wood in front of me and some tools that you think I can go build and construct like a whole thing that’s not gonna fall down in an earthquake or when everything starts to fall apart?

00:21:21.775 –> 00:21:22.035
Of course not.

00:21:22.045 –> 00:21:35.365
There are certain things and structures and experiences that builders and architects and, uh, in the physical space are doing to ensure that tomorrow if there is an earthquake, y- the house won’t come falling down on you, right?

00:21:35.535 –> 00:21:38.615
Not in all cases, but in the, in the, in your best case scenario.

00:21:38.785 –> 00:21:49.865
So you can also think about this in a m- in an emotional or sort of a, a, a cognitive sense as well, that you can’t just tell somebody to go and do s- this or just have agency and design this.

00:21:50.165 –> 00:21:54.325
They need experiences, they need skills, they need practice.

00:21:54.715 –> 00:22:02.635
And so I really think that like there are strategies, like evidence-based strategies that we have for teaching this.

00:22:03.127 –> 00:22:24.547
you know, there’s a, there’s a really good book, um, by these two professors from USC called Clark and Estes, and I wanna say it’s called “Turning Research into Results.” And They talk about how
when we are trying to answer questions like the one you’re doing or implementing initiatives like AI and whatnot, there are three areas you have to look at, and the three have to function together.

00:22:24.967 –> 00:22:26.157
The first one is knowledge.

00:22:26.197 –> 00:22:26.897
People need knowledge.

00:22:26.897 –> 00:22:29.047
They need training, they need PD, they need to understand.

00:22:29.317 –> 00:22:35.527
However, 80% of our focus tends to be knowledge only, and we forget, they say, the other two.

00:22:35.697 –> 00:22:37.217
The second one is motivation.

00:22:37.427 –> 00:22:41.017
Do I believe I am capable of integrating?

00:22:41.017 –> 00:22:42.297
Let’s just take AI for an example.

00:22:42.557 –> 00:22:48.747
You just sat through a training of Gemini or a training of whatever, and now you don’t even believe you’re capable.

00:22:48.917 –> 00:22:55.457
You’re like, “Well, I’m too old for this. This is too hard for me. The kids know more than I do.” You can give that person all the training in the world.

00:22:55.527 –> 00:22:59.917
If they do not believe they are capable of something, this does nothing.

00:23:00.247 –> 00:23:06.027
And, uh, what I love about Clark and Esty’s work is they break down motivation into so many different levels.

00:23:06.257 –> 00:23:13.801
So it’s n- once I believe I can do it, do I have a, do I have an area where I want to apply this, and can I sustain that?

00:23:14.141 –> 00:23:18.311
And to help this become successful, you need your organizational elements.

00:23:18.641 –> 00:23:38.031
If there’s no time for me to collaborate with my peers, if I’m constantly being bombarded with other requests, if I, you know, don’t have a schedule that allows me–
Like if we don’t start looking at these three areas together, doing one without the other gets you a void, and you don’t get that outcome that you’re looking for.

00:23:38.341 –> 00:23:46.301
So I think all around, this concept of agency isn’t just for young people, it’s really for everybody.

00:23:46.311 –> 00:23:54.061
H- how do you b- how do you start giving people more hope that you can start doing things and taking it into your own hands?

00:23:54.091 –> 00:24:04.869
And it’s a hard one because it, it’s– so much of it is mindset, but it’s one of those that like you don’t believe it till you see it, but you don’t see it until you believe it in some ways.

00:24:05.094 –> 00:24:07.826
I, I think if you start looking at the– I would just say start observing.

00:24:08.126 –> 00:24:19.086
Start observing people who are thriving right now with AI, because there’s no doubt that people are, and look at people who are not, and usually you will notice that that is the gap between them.

00:24:19.096 –> 00:24:22.616
One group just believes they can figure it out, and they’re willing to watch some YouTube videos.

00:24:22.626 –> 00:24:31.326
They’re willing to do some things on the, on a weekend when somebody else– Whereas the other people, I tend to find, they want somebody to fix the whole equation before they’ll, they’ll start.

00:24:31.566 –> 00:24:33.306
“No, first get rid of standardized testing.

00:24:33.316 –> 00:24:35.136
No, our college admissions needs to change.

00:24:35.146 –> 00:24:40.026
No, this needs to happen.” And people who figure things out, they’re like, “You know what?

00:24:40.066 –> 00:25:00.421
I’m just gonna check those boxes and get it out the way, and I’m gonna do my own thing.” they, they maneuver around obstacles instead of saying, “Please get rid of all the
obstacles and then I’ll go and do X.” And I see that, I see that gap pretty much everywhere I go between people that are moving towards something right now and people who are not.

00:25:00.893 –> 00:25:01.163
Jeff Kubiak: Right.

00:25:01.163 –> 00:25:05.283
And it’s really evident, you know, talking what you just said about see it, believe it, believe it, see it.

00:25:05.633 –> 00:25:11.863
Same thing goes, you know, many people can’t do it until they believe it or believe it until the, it’s done, right?

00:25:11.883 –> 00:25:20.143
And, and like you said, the motivation, it, it comes from so many different sources, from our teachers, from ourself, from others, right?

00:25:20.143 –> 00:25:23.133
And students have to have that.

00:25:23.133 –> 00:25:31.924
They have to have the champion, the person, the thing, the friend, something that helps give them hope, builds their agency, and motivates them.

00:25:32.174 –> 00:25:33.444
It’s, yeah, amazing.

00:25:34.294 –> 00:25:48.385
What, what do you see from students, because you’ve been working a lot with them lately, if they were actually in charge of designing schools, what would be the very first thing you, you see would appear in every building?

00:25:49.222 –> 00:25:50.852
Dr. Sabba Quidwai: So this one is tricky, okay?

00:25:50.852 –> 00:25:55.782
And again, I’m just gonna put the caveat that like I don’t– I’m not saying this is the answer, I’m just

00:25:55.960 –> 00:25:56.430
Jeff Kubiak: Oh, no

00:25:56.492 –> 00:25:57.992
Dr. Sabba Quidwai: is the thing I observe.

00:25:58.482 –> 00:26:03.832
I think there is so much these days about like student voice and bringing students in and da da da.

00:26:03.832 –> 00:26:04.492
Amazing.

00:26:04.502 –> 00:26:05.732
Bring in all your voices.

00:26:05.732 –> 00:26:06.762
Bring in whoever you want.

00:26:07.222 –> 00:26:16.062
However, if your voices are not informed about where things are going, and they do not have a shared knowledge base

00:26:17.138 –> 00:26:17.148
Jeff Kubiak: Ooh

00:26:17.420 –> 00:26:19.820
Dr. Sabba Quidwai: They are operating off of an old system, not a new one.

00:26:20.070 –> 00:26:21.570
And I’ll tell you why I see this in students.

00:26:21.570 –> 00:26:24.370
A lot of people will bring students forward and be like: “Oh, well, what do you need with AI?”

00:26:24.370 –> 00:26:25.690
And like, da, da, da, da, da.

00:26:26.160 –> 00:26:28.820
And one of the biggest things students will ask for is rules.

00:26:29.140 –> 00:26:32.730
“I need to know what I can and cannot do.” Why?

00:26:32.940 –> 00:26:35.710
Because they are used to a compliance model of education.

00:26:36.040 –> 00:26:36.470
Okay?

00:26:36.780 –> 00:26:53.660
Now, as adults, you have to recognize that while they want that standardization and they wanna know, “Tell me what I can do, tell me what I can’t
do, give me the rules that I can follow to get what I need to get so I can check your boxes,” is the number one thing most of them will ask for.

00:26:53.950 –> 00:27:08.140
Most of your students are not gonna come to you and say, “Well, I’d really like to learn how to make good decisions with the techno…” They’ll, they’ll get there eventually,
but that’s not what they’re looking for because they’re looking at it in the context of, “How do I make sure that my teacher doesn’t get mad at me for using AI on this essay?”

00:27:08.470 –> 00:27:09.930
That, that, that’s their frame.

00:27:10.300 –> 00:27:18.330
So if you are bringing in multiple voices, the very first thing you need to do is make sure we have a shared frame from which we are operating.

00:27:18.600 –> 00:27:25.640
Otherwise, what most people will do sometimes is they’ll get that student survey, they’ll get those student voices, they’ll get that data and be like, “Well, our kids need clear rules.

00:27:25.670 –> 00:27:32.780
Let’s give them some traffic lights and tell them where they can use AI and where they can’t.” And there’s a little bit of a responsibility on us to be like, “Wait a minute.

00:27:33.250 –> 00:27:34.480
Is this the right method?

00:27:34.500 –> 00:27:36.860
Is this the right approach?” But at the end of the day, they are, they are young.

00:27:36.900 –> 00:27:45.360
They– This is the purpose of being an adult and having experience and, and knowing how to look through different sources and different pieces of information and all of these different things.

00:27:45.390 –> 00:27:54.940
So I think no matter what voices you’re bringing in, no matter what things, this is one thing I see when people bring in students that sometimes is a little bit– it can take you down a wrong path even though you have the best of intentions.

00:27:55.260 –> 00:28:00.420
Um, the second thing I’ll say that we see is that this is a very neglected part of the conversation.

00:28:00.420 –> 00:28:06.990
When you go a layer deeper and ask them, you know, why they’re maybe misusing something, they’re very honest in telling you what they are and aren’t doing.

00:28:07.840 –> 00:28:13.250
We really neglect, and this is not because of AI, we’ve heard this from before, like the research has been out for so long.

00:28:13.640 –> 00:28:26.030
They are incredibly stressed, they are incredibly anxious, they are incredibly nervous about their futures, and they don’t have enough people to talk to, to be like, “Okay,” like, “How do I figure this out?”

00:28:26.490 –> 00:28:28.880
And again, it’s like something else.

00:28:28.890 –> 00:28:33.040
You don’t figure something out in a 45-minute lesson or one counseling session.

00:28:33.420 –> 00:28:43.500
This is– You need to, again, over time, have people help you see the frame or help you design the frame that you are going to construct yourself.

00:28:43.520 –> 00:28:48.200
Because I do think we’re moving into a world where there will be multiple frames based on what you believe.

00:28:48.490 –> 00:28:54.420
You know, if you’re somebody who believes, “Hey, I can figure it out and I can launch a business and I can do XYZ,” there are people doing that today.

00:28:54.490 –> 00:28:58.900
All ages, all ages, from 10 to 70, people are doing this across the board.

00:28:59.220 –> 00:29:03.270
But you also have people who are, who are stuck, who are just like, “Everything’s broken.

00:29:03.280 –> 00:29:04.700
Every, every, I’m gonna get laid off.

00:29:04.760 –> 00:29:05.590
How do I do this?

00:29:05.590 –> 00:29:14.344
How do I do whatever?” And one of the things that I think is important Is when we do this with kids when they’re younger, you don’t have the pressure always.

00:29:14.414 –> 00:29:30.557
Of course, there’s a different type of pressure, but it’s very hard to kind of be like, “Oh yeah, I’m gonna think about starting a business and I’m gonna lean into
AI and I’m gonna spend my weekends doing this,” if you’ve got a partner, two kids, and you’re paycheck to paycheck and you’re worried about so many different things.

00:29:30.587 –> 00:29:36.787
And I think that’s the economic reality for so many people today, and it, it’s really hard.

00:29:37.067 –> 00:29:45.437
There, there’s just no way around that because we don’t have good social infrastructure in our… And you know a really good example, we don’t have good infrastructure in general.

00:29:45.437 –> 00:29:52.547
I was just reading an article this morning about FIFA and how like a lot of the people who are coming are like, “What in the– What do you mean you don’t have a train?

00:29:52.757 –> 00:29:55.817
What do you mean I’m gonna spend $100 on an Uber?

00:29:56.047 –> 00:30:04.777
What do you mean I’m gonna spend…” You know, in New Jersey they were saying they were charging $150 for a train ticket that would normally cost $19 because they can’t afford the infrastructure.

00:30:05.007 –> 00:30:10.817
So I didn’t know this, but I guess FIFA doesn’t pay for a country to build the infrastructure and do all of these things.

00:30:11.177 –> 00:30:14.777
The incentive is supposed to be for the country because it’s supposed to bring in so many people.

00:30:14.947 –> 00:30:16.877
It’s supposed to help your tourism, it’s supposed to do all these things.

00:30:16.887 –> 00:30:21.433
But between all the drama that we’ve had here, nobody wants to come.

00:30:21.433 –> 00:30:22.947
And so now they’re having, they’re struggling.

00:30:22.967 –> 00:30:24.507
They’re like, “We’re not having the ticket sales.”

00:30:24.747 –> 00:30:29.527
People’s Airbnbs are not getting the, the, the, the revenue that they thought was going to come in.

00:30:29.857 –> 00:30:39.299
So like we, we have a lot of infrastructure challenges in general where, you know, like I wish more people spent more time talking about this than they did the environment, you know, honestly.

00:30:39.309 –> 00:30:45.939
Like, because the environment is a byproduct of not supporting your infrastructure in these ways, not supporting people in certain ways.

00:30:45.939 –> 00:30:47.309
And I, I don’t know.

00:30:47.309 –> 00:30:57.199
It was a little bit of a tangent, but I do think there was a very harsh reality to address here that we do not have good social infrastructure for people.

00:30:57.199 –> 00:31:06.589
And over time we’ve just created two really different economic realities that you, uh, very obvious in pretty much any city you visit.

00:31:06.919 –> 00:31:10.469
You have just people living in two completely… It, it’s like that where I am.

00:31:10.649 –> 00:31:17.119
You have people living in two completely different worlds, completely different economic realities, um, within just a couple miles of each other.

00:31:17.499 –> 00:31:17.769
Jeff Kubiak: Right.

00:31:17.829 –> 00:31:18.969
The haves and the have-nots.

00:31:18.969 –> 00:31:23.489
And it’s funny, you know, so do you remember the movie Field of Dreams with Kevin Costner?

00:31:23.509 –> 00:31:24.869
It was a baseball movie, okay?

00:31:24.879 –> 00:31:27.099
And so, you know, if you build it, they will come.

00:31:27.232 –> 00:31:36.892
That, that’s your infrastructure argument times 10 for so many things, because you look at, you know, lack of public trans and our roads and our this, right?

00:31:36.892 –> 00:31:42.522
So like if all these things were in place, FIFA would be sold out in two seconds, right?

00:31:43.712 –> 00:31:50.282
And that, I think that limits so many different things in schools, in education, with humans, right?

00:31:50.292 –> 00:31:56.342
And you know, it’s funny, you get– from Winnie the Pooh, you get one Tigger in a room of 10 Eeyores.

00:31:56.342 –> 00:32:05.962
How is that Tigger gonna thrive with his mindset when there’s too many Eeyores telling him, “Hmm, it’ll never work,” right?

00:32:06.782 –> 00:32:07.662
That’s a big challenge

00:32:07.684 –> 00:32:21.454
Dr. Sabba Quidwai: will say there is one thing that I do wish more people leaned into because yes, even though we have these infrastructure challenges and whatnot, I do wish a lot more on a local level, local businesses partnered with schools and students.

00:32:21.814 –> 00:32:26.504
I think you would have every AI project, y- your AI literacy curriculum would be built right then and there.

00:32:26.504 –> 00:32:29.784
You wouldn’t even have to do anything while giving kids real experience.

00:32:30.114 –> 00:32:35.724
Like if you taught kids like design thinking and like, “Hey, we’re gonna partner you with these small businesses.

00:32:35.954 –> 00:32:42.794
Go in there, interview them about what they’re working on, what they’re trying to do,” and like, “Okay, how can we use AI to come up with a solution for this business?”

00:32:43.154 –> 00:32:48.594
I think you would see– I think there would just be so much more community engagement while helping kids build.

00:32:48.594 –> 00:32:50.204
We talk about like work-based learning, blah, blah.

00:32:50.484 –> 00:32:56.954
We want everything to be this like fully structured program, whereas honestly, sometimes it’s a matter of just going and being like, “Hey, can we do this together?”

00:32:57.204 –> 00:33:05.224
Like, “Hey, can we come together?” Every business would fall for that kind of experience and help right now, because so many small businesses don’t even have any exposure to AI.

00:33:05.234 –> 00:33:07.764
They don’t have the money to bring in consulting teams.

00:33:07.764 –> 00:33:12.794
Like even being able to help a restaurant use AI, you know, to run a marketing campaign, to do something.

00:33:12.954 –> 00:33:23.244
That experience of talking to people, building things, asking questions, this is all critical thinking that is, in my opinion, more valuable than like a five-paragraph essay.

00:33:23.484 –> 00:33:29.534
So there’s so many small tweaks we can make that don’t cost a lot of money, but they do cost courage.

00:33:29.844 –> 00:33:35.654
And courage is unfortunately very, very, very, um, hard to come by.

00:33:36.206 –> 00:33:36.396
Jeff Kubiak: Yeah.

00:33:36.396 –> 00:33:38.566
F- fear, fear versus courage, right?

00:33:38.566 –> 00:33:49.486
And so many of the school districts that I speak with and these architect firms, when they involve community partners for either their CTE or their this or their that, the community wins.

00:33:49.716 –> 00:34:03.986
No doubt, hands down, the community wins and all, all members, students, infants, pets, no matter what, because everyone gets agency, everyone gets a voice, everyone becomes a part of it, and that’s

00:34:04.322 –> 00:34:04.712
Dr. Sabba Quidwai: Yeah.

00:34:05.252 –> 00:34:05.582
Yeah.

00:34:05.882 –> 00:34:19.742
And I feel like we have AI tools today, like if you were to say something like this yesterday, I might sit in my like 10th grade world history classroom or US history
classroom and be like, “Well, how in the world am I gonna partner with a restaurant while I need to get through these content standards and do da, da, da, da?”

00:34:19.742 –> 00:34:21.542
But today I can put that into AI.

00:34:21.542 –> 00:34:38.432
“Hey, we need to hit this standard on World War II right now, but I also wanna get my kids learning AI literacy and working with the community and getting
them some experience. How do I merge this together in the same timeframe?” And to be able to– That that’s something I think for people would be really hard.

00:34:38.872 –> 00:34:42.232
But for your AI tool, it can whip that up for you in a couple of seconds.

00:34:42.492 –> 00:34:57.152
And, uh, what I find is once people have a frame and they’re like, “Oh, that’s– So you’re talking about World War II and economic collapse of businesses
and things that happened during wartime over there. Let’s tie that into economic trends we’re seeing currently right now, and how do we support an elevator?”

00:34:57.402 –> 00:35:01.032
There’s so many parallels we can bring in to content and how we learn.

00:35:01.420 –> 00:35:11.970
but it requires, like I said, a little bit of that initiative to be like, to go and ask that question, to have the courage to say, “Okay, how might we…” Which is again, that design thinking mindset, right?

00:35:11.970 –> 00:35:15.560
So those are the kinds of things that I think AI can help us with so much.

00:35:15.560 –> 00:35:17.320
Things that we think are not possible.

00:35:17.570 –> 00:35:19.570
Your AI tool doesn’t believe anything’s impossible.

00:35:19.740 –> 00:35:31.650
It, it’s a huge advantage to have somebody with you 24/7 who’s gonna be like, “Be delusional.” Like, you know, like, “You can think, but here, here’s how you can do it.” And you can tell it 50 reasons why you think it won’t work.

00:35:31.650 –> 00:35:33.100
You can give it every constraint.

00:35:33.250 –> 00:35:39.320
It will work within it, within it, within it, within it, down to, “Here’s how you could do this in f- in 50 minutes if you really had to,” right?

00:35:39.802 –> 00:35:40.862
Jeff Kubiak: the l- limitless.

00:35:40.862 –> 00:35:43.862
Like, I don’t care what you tell me no, it’s going to work.

00:35:43.872 –> 00:35:45.942
I find, I will find a way, right?

00:35:45.942 –> 00:35:53.913
And so, we, we love to ask all of our guests on the Better Learning Podcast, we use a phrase called radically student-centered, right?

00:35:53.913 –> 00:35:58.013
And that really helps us pave the way for what we do.

00:35:58.073 –> 00:36:05.563
So in, uh, in Sabba’s mind, what does radically student-centered mean, or give us your thoughts on that phrase

00:36:06.785 –> 00:36:07.155
Dr. Sabba Quidwai: Mm-hmm.

00:36:07.155 –> 00:36:18.055
I feel like because I’m so inspired right now by Roseville, I would say radically student-centered would just mean that you bring adults and kids together to have a conversation about what we design next.

00:36:18.115 –> 00:36:22.695
And not like, what do we need, whatever, but like, tell me about what it’s like to be you right now.

00:36:22.895 –> 00:36:24.365
Tell me about what you’re dealing with.

00:36:24.415 –> 00:36:25.645
Tell me about what’s hard for you.

00:36:25.645 –> 00:36:27.095
Tell me about what you’re excited about.

00:36:27.375 –> 00:36:28.765
Tell me about how I can help you more.

00:36:29.025 –> 00:36:39.765
And, and those are the conversations about us that then help us decide the role AI can play in, in addressing those things that, wow, why are kids struggling like that?

00:36:39.775 –> 00:36:42.675
Like with Roseville, another thing that came up was toxic competition.

00:36:42.995 –> 00:36:45.305
The kids are like, “We all feel like we need to be the same.

00:36:45.305 –> 00:36:54.435
We are all competing.” Like, we don’t get to be– It’s so funny to hear from adults like, “No, we want you to be unique and your voice and your this.” But if you ask the kids, they, they think everybody’s trying to standardize them.

00:36:54.445 –> 00:36:56.185
We all are competing for the same grades.

00:36:56.185 –> 00:36:57.755
We’re all competing for the same spots.

00:36:58.075 –> 00:36:59.815
We’re all doing the same, same, same.

00:36:59.845 –> 00:37:01.905
We’re not getting to really be who we are.

00:37:02.265 –> 00:37:04.295
So that’s a very– that’s not an AI challenge.

00:37:04.315 –> 00:37:14.555
These are human challenges that AI plays a role in helping us think through, solve through, create, and, and kind of get to, you know, a, a accelerating movement towards solving and creating some of these things

00:37:15.371 –> 00:37:21.801
Jeff Kubiak: And I think what you just– one of the points I just heard too is that, you know, asking students’ opinion, getting their ideas.

00:37:21.801 –> 00:37:32.648
And so, like, for adults to be malleable, to listen, to let it absorb and marinate from students, we ask them to do it all day.

00:37:32.648 –> 00:37:34.448
Why can’t we do it with them, right?

00:37:34.979 –> 00:37:36.159
I wanna say thank you.

00:37:36.429 –> 00:37:39.459
Thank you so much for taking the time, being on the podcast.

00:37:39.929 –> 00:37:42.029
Um, once again, Better Learning Podcast.

00:37:42.119 –> 00:37:43.639
Share with your friends, click.

00:37:44.079 –> 00:37:49.329
Reach out to Sabba because her work is as good as it gets in so many realms.

00:37:49.759 –> 00:37:55.709
So be sure to, uh, follow her work, follow our podcast, and, uh, thanks again for being here, my friend

00:37:56.351 –> 00:37:57.711
Dr. Sabba Quidwai: Thanks for having me

00:38:01.666 –> 00:38:06.086
The Better Learning Podcast is produced by Matt Rogers and edited by Kelly Jones.

00:38:06.796 –> 00:38:16.196
The views and opinions shared on this podcast are those of the individuals speaking and do not necessarily represent the perspectives of their affiliated companies, organizations, or associations