Read Transcript:

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Matt Rogers: Welcome back to the Better Learning Podcast.

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My name is Matt Rogers, and in this special episode, we’re taking you on the road with us to hear directly from members of the A4LE Association for Learning Environments community.

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Over the past several months, we had the opportunity to attend several A4LE regional conferences across the country, connecting with
architects, educators, planners, designers, and industry partners who are all passionate about creating better learning environments.

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At each conference, we asked attendees a few questions: What does it mean to be radically student-centered?

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What are the biggest opportunities and challenges facing educational facility planning and design today?

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What conversations should more people in our industry be having?

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And of course, we threw in a few fun local questions along the way.

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This episode features conversations and insights from AFERLE Midwest Great Lakes Regional Conference in St. Louis, Missouri

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Without further ado, let’s dive in

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what’s your favorite city landmark anywhere in the world, and how do you think it compares to the Gateway, uh, Arch?

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Josh Chism: All right, so here’s the big reveal.

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Uh, my, my favorite city landmark is the Golden Gate Bridge.

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Um, here’s why, and here, how does that compare to, um, the St. Louis Arch?

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I, I think it’s very comparable.

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I can remember going to San Francisco and standing, you know, down by the, by the water and looking up at the bridge and just sort of being in this awe-inspiring moment.

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It’s so massive.

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you know, it’s such a, such a, landmark, uh, for that city.

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I get the same feeling standing under the St. Louis Arch, standing under that, looking up, and thinking about the history that brought, um, that’s brought to, to our community here in St. Louis and what that landmark meant, um, as the Gateway to the West.

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And then I guess it’s, to some sense, there’s a parallel to the Ga- uh, to the Golden Gate Bridge as well.

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You know, that’s, that is the West.

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That is the, the far coast.

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And, being an engineer, I look at both of those, uh, structures as just a, um, a modern marvel.

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And, um, standing underneath the Arch or standing next to the Golden Gate Bridge just, um, it sort of takes your breath away.

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Nicole Dryden: I probably have a pretty, uh, cheesy answer.

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It is truly the Gateway Arch.

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There’s nothing like the Gateway Arch.

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You know, we’ve spent years coming back to the area and driving from Milwaukee.

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It’s a game every time, right?

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You’re in the car with the kids, and who can spot the arch first?

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And it’s just, it’s so iconic and special and unique, and you see it in a picture, and it doesn’t seem like much.

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But there’s something about standing at the base of this iron arch, and I mean, it’s just this im- immense, insane monument to what humanity can do.

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Philip Riedel: Probably my favorite building is the TWA terminal at JFK Airport, which is also by the same architect- he just had this amazing expression of, uh, basically of flight, uh, in that airport terminal.

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It’s been turned into a hotel now, which, uh, would definitely be fun to go to.

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uh, I think his work was just the same with the Arch, expressing a positivity in that age, uh, and the, the potential for technology, which was, uh- during that mid-century period

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Brad Erwin: I’d have to say the Chicago skyline is probably my favorite landmark, and when we get up there, I try to make a dash to the, to the lakefront to kinda stand with my back to the east and, and look west.

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and, you know, but it’s, it’s, it’s definitely comparable in some ways because, uh, the St.

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Louis Arch, we travel back and forth to Chicago and Illinois frequently, so coming back over the bridge, you know, that, the Gateway Arch, uh, coming over 44, um, always is that welcoming sign that, that we’re almost home.

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And, uh, now having an office in St. Louis, kind of that same feeling is when you get downtown, um, and, uh, if you’re fortunate enough to get down there
on a, on a quiet day, standing underneath the arch is still a pretty good feeling with, uh, river in the background and, it’s, it’s pretty special still.

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Jeff Vandel: that’s a tough question.

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I have, uh, a lot of, uh, a lot of favorite landmarks.

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the one that, that sort of, uh, comes to mind is, is maybe, uh, Mount Rushmore.

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It’s not a city landmark- Oh, yeah … but it’s, uh- Yeah … it’s, uh, definitely a, a cool landmark.

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a lot of people say they’re a little bit underwhelmed, uh, w- when they get there.

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But just, I mean, to think about, uh, what, what it takes to just carve that out of a mountain, you know, is just like this humongous art piece there and, uh, a tribute to the nation, everything.

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I think that’s really cool.

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Roger Bearup: Okay.

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I would say my favorite is the Statue of Liberty, and I, uh, was fortunate enough to be on a boat on a 4th of July to watch fireworks, uh, in New York and, and right by the Statue of Liberty.

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And I’ve always loved that for what it signifies of, uh, you know, welcoming people to our country.

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And I think the Gateway Arch is really the same type of thing.

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Mm-hmm.

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So I think they both have a lot in common.

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And I haven’t seen the Gateway Arch yet, but I will tomorrow.

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So very excited about that.

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I’ve heard a lot of wonderful things, and matter of fact, my son, Josh, when I mentioned I was coming here, he said, “Make sure, make sure you go to the Gateway Arch.

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You have to see that.

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You’ll, you’ll love it.” So, uh, really looking forward to it.

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Katie Jubenville: when I say radically student-centered, what does that mean to you?

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Josh Chism: So in my world, coming from operation- the operational side of K12 education, I think of radically student-centered more from that lens of a facilities, um, and a building perspective.

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And so, um, that’s, that’s the contribution that I think Capital EE provides to the K12 market, is understanding what facilities do you have and how can you best, uh, focus your finances and your resources into every student.

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And, and taking that from a radical perspective sometimes means looking at your portfolio as a whole and saying, “I have these many schools and this, th- th- this amount of students.”
Um, and sometimes radical decisions have to be made to, uh, make sure that every dollar, available is going into the classroom and quite frankly, not going into things that aren’t needed.

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there’s a lot of, a lot of extra, uh, that’s being, that’s expenditures that are being made across the country, uh, in K12 education, and we’ve seen declining enrollment, um, across the nation.

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We’re seeing lower birth rates.

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And so radically student, radically centered student to me means taking every dollar and getting the most out of it, every penny, and getting the most out of it for every student.

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Nicole Dryden: When you work in education, you really are stewards of the next generation Every single thing that you do in a space really affects what
the next generation is experiencing, what they’re learning, um, what their social emotional context will be like during most of their day, you know?

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My daughter’s now in school, and she has this whole life that I know nothing about.

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Um, and the physical environment of her school day shapes so much, uh, not only for her and her peers, uh, if they’re able to really be collaborative and work together, um, if they have access to natural daylight, if they have adequate thermal comfort.

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We actually put the air conditioning system into my daughter’s elementary school, so you know, it may not be the most exciting project, but it’s been really impactful for her, right?

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Um, but really just when we’re designing, we try to make every single space as useful and beautiful and joy-filled as possible for students.

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There’s no corner that’s too unimportant to not be part of that.

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Nicholas Kent: for me, radically student-centered means providing opportunities, finding places for every student to find his or her ideal learning space.

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Uh, both of my students, uh, both my kids, uh, were non-traditional students.

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Um, they both went to a very high achieving high school that is very much, um, a, a college prep model.

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Uh, but through, um, through wonderful collaborations with the, with the teachers, we have been able to craft them an experience that found very unique pathways to meet each one of their, uh, unique personalities and, and skill sets.

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And from, as an architect, uh, it has been challenging.

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They both, um, all of their school buildings that they have gone to are nearly 100 years old.

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And actually right now we are engaged with my homeschool districts envisioning what a next generation of spaces might look like.

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Too late for my kids.

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Yeah.

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Um, but still, it’s very, very important work.

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So finding those opportunities, um, both in the physical realm, but also in these human-to-human connections, how do we facilitate that in the spaces and the environments that we create?

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To find that unique space that meets every unique kid wherever, wherever they may be.

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Philip Riedel: for me, it means taking the perspective of the student and thinking about it through their eyes, uh, and combining that with all of the research and, uh, best practices that we can gather.

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And so that’s why A4LE is so important to share all of that.

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thing that I came here to present about, and, uh, so that’s been on my mind, is, working to create spaces that support special ed students being integrated into the general population.

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it turns out that accommodating students w- with special needs ends up creating benefits for all students.

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things like, uh, special ed students are often more sensitive than the general population to acoustics, but lowering the sound levels in a classroom, that just benefits everybody, especially at elementary school age.

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Um, so it’s looking for those opportunities to, to benefit all different kinds of students.

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the other thing that we get with, um, integration of special ed with the general population is the benefits of what’s called reverse
inclusion, where the students that, are general population students also benefit by having special needs students in the classroom with them.

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They can develop empathy.

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They can understand the whole range of, different student abilities.

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so we, we see that as well.

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Dr. Stephanie Loane: so I think about students that maybe help me remember what radically student-centered means, and I think about CJ Howe, and he was a student that I had when I was a first-grade teacher.

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And he was definitely not interested in any strategies I had to offer when it came to reading.

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And I had to really think differently about how I was going to get things across to him, and it really helped me.

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Um, he was interested in wrestling, like WWE stuff, and at the time it wa- this was the ’90s, and I went to the library and got some VHS tapes on WrestleMania.

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And I had No, I had zero background in it.

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Um, but I had to learn about his favorite wrestlers.

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Hmm.

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And so we would take some time and watch some of these videos together, and then we would write our own stories about some of these wrestlers.

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And, um, I was just really desperate to… A- and it just reminded me so much that there are students that have these interests, and if you can just really hone in on those, you can get some things, some things going.

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So I think about CJ a lot.

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Brenton C Hite: Yeah.

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I think where I see this the most is just remembering that the, the spaces that we create are, are housed by kids who just wanna be kids.

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Um, and so often we’re in rooms full of adults making decisions for them, and, uh, there’s a superintendent we work with on the regular who always says, “Are we making
decisions for the adults? Are we making decisions for the kids?” Um, so, like, remembering that that’s… We’re doing what’s best for the kids, not what’s best for the adults.

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So if something is inconvenient or not ideal, but it’s better for kids, it’s the right thing to do.

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Um, and, and as a parent with three kids, like, of trying to do that, I, I bring that home with me as well of thinking, “How do I, how do I parent well, and how do I l- love them and guide them in the same, the same way?”

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So…

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Brad Erwin: Yeah, it’s kinda interesting because, um, I once had a mentor tell me that there’s two buildings that are, um, that are designed for their occupants, but they, uh, never have those occupants involved in the conversations.

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And that’s, uh, schools with students and jails with inmates.

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And that really stood out to me as like, we have to correct that.

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And, uh, what we find is the best projects we’re involved with is that we have some level of student engagement in the process, and that’s hugely important.

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But then as we get through that, we always have to keep in mind we’re not necessarily designing these buildings for the teachers that are currently occupying those rooms or the administration- Mm

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or the board members that are currently occupying the s- the seats of leadership.

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And that’s why we specialize in the market segments that we do, is to help bring that thought leadership forward and that outside perspective into those situations to really help c-
use that combination of their expertise at the local level and their knowing of their community and their staff and their teachers and the community, combined with our expertise within
education to really develop a, a, a program and a project that’s specific to them, but might elevate it above and beyond maybe that first vision of what they had for the project.

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If we keep bringing every decision back to what those students need, not only today, but really for the next 20, 30, 40 years, um, that’s when we can really be a little bit more radically student-centered than, than we would be otherwise.

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Jeff Vandel: so in our district, we, um, have this phrase, uh, that I, I think is very similar to radically steward c- student-centered.

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we say champions for all students.

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I, I think those, those are very similar phrases there.

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so many students can fall through the cracks.

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and that’s students that are on not only the, the lower end of, uh, uh, the, the spectrum, but also the students that are, like, high achieving too.

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Sometimes those kind of fall through the cracks as, as well.

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And I think being radically student-centered is just understanding that full range and full needs of all kids, uh, and, and all the students and, and trying to plan, good spaces for them, which can mean very, very different things.

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Roger Bearup: Radically student-centered Means every decision you make, every action, your collaboration with, uh, all the people that are involved in your organization are, uh, all the decisions are made centered around kids.

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And not all, not, you know, really even all kids, but more importantly every kid, uh, because every kid needs something different.

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So you have to be fired up for really getting to know kids, building those relationships, those connections with kids and their families,
really finding out how kids learn best because everyone doesn’t learn the same way, uh, and they don’t always master something at the same time.

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So really getting in tune, uh, to what tools, resources, things that are out there to help you as you build and strengthen that relationship and that connection with a kid.

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What are those things that really help them thrive?

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So I think radically student-centered just means you’re always keeping kids, every single kid, um, at the forefront of all decisions you make within the school district.

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Matt Rogers: How do you approach a school design process with maximum impact in mind and not just a replacement of a building?

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Josh Chism: Yeah.

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So, um, as far as not just replacement of a building, uh, I think that’s key.

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When new, new construction occurs or remodels occur or a new, uh, a new school is in the works, understanding, Understanding that impact is the beginnings of, of this work.

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And so I– the, the way that we look at replacement of buildings is looking at an entire portfolio and saying, “Do– Where is the growth in your district?

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Where is the decline in your district?

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Do we have, do we have portfolio-wide decline?

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And if so, are there opportunities to redistribute or, or do we need to look at, um, massive transformation?”

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And so one example of that, we have had a district who, uh, was operating out of three schools.

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It was a small community.

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The, uh… They had a, a primary school, an intermediate school, and then they had already consolidated their middle school and high school into the old high school.

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Um, the buildings were built f- in the ’30s, the ’40s and the ’50s.

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And, uh, we looked at an opportunity for us.

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Instead of just replacing one of those buildings, is there an opportunity to replace all three and build, build a combined school where pre-K all the way through 12th grade are on the same campus?

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Um, they are able to leverage the s- the same, um, cafeteria and kitchen and, you know, they had multiple gyms.

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But out of that assessment process, we helped them develop a plan.

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Um, that plan identified a new pre-K 12 school.

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All three of the existing schools were– would to be demolished.

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And out of that new combined school was, uh, for the district to pass a bond.

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The bond was an $8 million bond.

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And then we worked with the district and the state to subsidize that process where the state was able to contribute, um, 92 million, approximately 92 million, and the district was contributing eight.

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And so out of a $100 million project, this community that’s been operating our schools for literally 100 years, uh, is now on the cusp of entering into a brand new school that will literally change the community for generations

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Brenton C Hite: it’s as much engagement as we can do on the front end.

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Um, and oftentimes that’s a challenge because so many of our districts and our clients and the teachers and staff, they, I mean, they’ve got a full-time job already of, of trying to be educators, and then we’re coming in saying,
“Hey, we want more of your time and more of your efforts to help us plan and design something that will ultimately benefit you, but it’s gonna be years before you see any of that payoff because it’s gonna take us time to get there.”

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Um, but knowing that that investment will pay off and, and trying to show them as much as possible, um, and getting people out of their comfort zone and out of the things that
they know, out of the box that they teach in and showing them that people do this differently and, um, s- just give them things to consider, um, and really engage in that process.

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Um, a, a really g- we’ve done a lot of work at Westfield High School in Westfield, Indiana, um, and they’re a really thoughtful group to have worked with.

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Um, and w- we’re, we’ll kick things around with their leadership team.

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Um, I know I’ve, we’ve been in meetings where we were talking about lockers, and they, it was a passing period, and the principal opened up the door, grabbed
three kids out of the hallway and say, “Hey, show me your locker, and h- and, and how big is your backpack and how many backpacks do you go to your locker?”

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it was just really interesting to just, just be that saturated into the school culture.

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And, the design for their, the kind of a classroom addition for them ended up in these kind of neighborhoods or pods, uh, with flexible classrooms that could, uh, kind of flow in and out of each other with different design styles.

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Um, and part of that was based off the security feature that we can compartmentalize those off the main building.

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So to create transparency in the classrooms and that flexibility, we needed a, a barrier outside of the classroom, so we did that.

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Um, and interesting enough that, uh, First Lady Jill Biden had visited this school, um, a year or two ago.

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And, um, so the Secret Service was working on procedures to how to, of how they were gonna set up the room and then have to bring her into the room and then bring her out of the room, and then they have all of these, um, kind of contingency plans, right?

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If X, Y, or Z happens, then we have to move into this space.

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and afterwards, the superintendent calls me and says, “Well, hey, your, your pod design was Secret Service approved because they loved it.

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They had all the things they needed.

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They could move her in and out separately from all of the, the students who were coming to meet with her.

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Uh, there was a safe r- there was a safe area inside that was enclosed and away from windows.”

00:20:41.845 –> 00:20:43.405
Um, and so it worked out really, really well.

00:20:43.405 –> 00:20:44.695
They were very complimentary of it.

00:20:44.695 –> 00:20:48.925
And, I, I mean, I don’t know you can get higher praise than that when you’re coming away from it, so

00:20:49.943 –> 00:21:13.103
Dr. Stephanie Loane: when I think about this, I think about when I, I worked with teachers exclusively, um, for, gosh, the last 20 years of my career, and really helping to support teachers
in a collaborative setting and really making sure that collective teacher efficacy was at the heart of everything we did, and that’s very difficult to do when you can’t see each other.

00:21:13.853 –> 00:21:27.613
And we took so much time to study PLCs and the DuFour work, and they would happen on, like, a Tuesday after school or every other Thursday after school, and it wasn’t really embedded into the daily culture.

00:21:27.973 –> 00:21:38.219
And it reminds me of a time when I was- A first-year teacher, and it’s the first time you need to collaborate, which is when you need somebody to cover your class to go to the bathroom.

00:21:39.049 –> 00:22:00.768
And, um, I had a teacher cover my class so I could run to the bathroom, and as I’m coming down the hall, my mentor teacher, is just, has the kids captivated in this lesson, and it’s elapsed time,
and I’m teaching the same lesson, but she’s teaching it on a number line, and I’m teaching it like the math series has me teaching it with these analog clocks, and my kids just aren’t getting it.

00:22:00.788 –> 00:22:06.178
And so I’m standing out in the hallway kind of looking at her, and she just signals for me to come in.

00:22:06.958 –> 00:22:16.968
And so I said, “I just wanna see how you’re doing this because I’m not doing it that way, and my book isn’t showing me how to do it this way.” And she’s like, “Oh my gosh, you absolutely have to teach it on a number line.

00:22:16.968 –> 00:22:45.928
This is really the only way they kinda like hop and skip on the number line to understand elapsed time.” So I went back to my classroom and started over and started the lesson
over, and it was like, gosh, that was my first experience in 1998 or whatever, you know, with a PLC and with understanding what a design in that building could have done to
really elevate my teaching, and we could have worked together as a grade-level team to really make sure that our students were nailing, you know, what they needed to nail.

00:22:46.251 –> 00:22:48.221
and so I think about that in our designs.

00:22:48.241 –> 00:22:56.611
We do a lot of work, um, with elementary design as well as the high school design that, that Brent talked about, where we have these activity commons.

00:22:56.921 –> 00:23:04.331
And they’re lovely certainly for dramatic play or for opportunities for students to work with enrichment or remediation.

00:23:04.711 –> 00:23:26.731
But what really is fantastic is I heard a principal describe it as the vulnerability that teachers have to be able to see each other in this sort of bubble and to have a
grade-level team working together to be able to accomplish something towards a professional learning community and, again, elevate the collective teacher efficacy for that team.

00:23:26.731 –> 00:23:38.231
So I think when you think about the impact of that design and just simply eliminating a hallway but getting us into a space where we can see each other at work, that the impact is immeasurable,

00:23:39.301 –> 00:23:55.741
Brad Erwin: we have a pretty good example where, uh, a community that we work in, uh, we are charged with renovating, uh, an older 1940s, ’50s, ’60s era building, um, to make sure that it really functioned, to really solve their current problems.

00:23:55.851 –> 00:24:03.491
Um, fix the AC, make sure the toilets flush, uh, you know, get the walls painted, you know, all the typical things to make it new and, and shiny looking.

00:24:03.491 –> 00:24:17.301
And as we went through the programming, uh, effort, we realized that, you know, the cost of doing this is pretty substantial, and we were still gonna be stuck with educational spaces that were completely inadequate for today- Hmm … let alone moving forward.

00:24:17.891 –> 00:24:34.591
And so we had a great relationship and partnership, not only with the school district, but also with the construction team, where if we looked ahead and thought
about what we are really trying to do differently and really trying to solve a problem that exists in the future, we really, really needed to recreate that space.

00:24:34.591 –> 00:24:37.761
We really did need to, um, think about it differently.

00:24:37.841 –> 00:24:53.491
And, uh, for about a 5% premium, we were able to do a brand new school that still gave the flushing toilets, the brand new HVAC, doors that worked, the safety and security that were important to today to solve their problems that they were facing today.

00:24:53.981 –> 00:24:59.951
But to put them in spaces and the, and the kids and students in spaces that were well suited now for the next 20 or 30 years.

00:24:59.981 –> 00:25:00.141
Hmm.

00:25:00.241 –> 00:25:20.733
That gave them the flexibility to adapt and grow as pedagogy changed And, uh, all that took was a collaborative effort with design, construction, and a supportive administration
to take a step back and really look at what was the issue we were really trying to solve, not just what were the problems that were facing us today that we need to get, uh, beyond.

00:25:20.743 –> 00:25:35.503
And so I think if all educators and, and the design and construction teams were able to do that and really to help look forward, um, and solve those problems
of the future, not just the issues and challenges that we’re facing today, a lot of the challenges we’re facing today wouldn’t be the challenges, right?

00:25:35.513 –> 00:25:35.723
Yeah.

00:25:35.743 –> 00:25:44.993
So, um, so I think that that’s huge for us to really think about what that maximum impact could be versus just how do we replace the systems that are in front of us.

00:25:45.573 –> 00:25:52.253
Matt Rogers: What separates a school that simply functions from one that truly trans- uh, transforms its community in positive ways?

00:25:53.360 –> 00:25:57.837
Jeff Vandel: So we, we have, you know, 30-some different schools, uh, in, in our district.

00:25:58.337 –> 00:26:07.664
And, uh, a few years ago, we made this big push to, have each of these schools in a very clean feeder pattern.

00:26:07.944 –> 00:26:09.464
We have four high schools.

00:26:09.474 –> 00:26:16.824
Mm. And so now we have, uh, if you start at this eleme- elementary school, you know you’re gonna feed up to this middle school and to this high school.

00:26:16.834 –> 00:26:16.924
Mm-hmm.

00:26:16.964 –> 00:26:19.694
Before, it was a little bit mixed where- Mm … where you would go.

00:26:20.076 –> 00:26:28.150
uh, so that has gone a long ways to, r- really, uh, making communities, um, out of those schools, very strong communities.

00:26:28.500 –> 00:26:41.520
And, uh, uh, the high schoolers now whe- when, when they’re graduating, uh, their last day, they’re in their cap and gown, and they go back
through those elementary schools- Mm … and they walk the hallways and- Yeah … you know, give those kids high fives and, and that’s always cool.

00:26:41.850 –> 00:26:46.910
Um, but it, but that goes to, to build that, that sense of community.

00:26:47.280 –> 00:26:59.316
Uh- Uh, a- a- another thing, uh, we did, so again, several years ago, we had like two stadiums for the entire district, uh- Mm … like football stadiums.

00:26:59.316 –> 00:26:59.476
Yeah.

00:26:59.786 –> 00:27:06.736
And one served, you know, the, the north two schools, and the other one served the, the southern two schools.

00:27:07.096 –> 00:27:13.246
And, um, you always kinda got that feeling that, uh, you were playing football in someone else’s stadium unless- Mm

00:27:13.246 –> 00:27:14.376
it was there at your school.

00:27:15.343 –> 00:27:22.273
Katie Jubenville: so what is something students experience every day in a school building that most adults completely overlook?

00:27:22.973 –> 00:27:31.281
Philip Riedel: Well, thinking on that same theme, All of the senses of a student are impacted as they go through the day.

00:27:31.291 –> 00:27:37.363
So, the quality of light, uh, is, has a, a big impact on students.

00:27:38.163 –> 00:27:48.001
Uh, and whether they have access to natural daylight and views of the outside, that can really help them recenter themselves and self-regulate throughout the day.

00:27:48.332 –> 00:27:54.345
it’s something that invisible, but it has a big effect on, on students.

00:27:55.165 –> 00:27:57.055
The same thing, like I said, with sound.

00:27:57.423 –> 00:27:59.173
it can even happen with smells.

00:27:59.173 –> 00:28:07.693
Like, uh, students could, could smell smells from the cafeteria or something, and, um, so we wanna look at how we do ventilation.

00:28:08.081 –> 00:28:17.921
I think all of those, uh, invisible factors impact how the student’s going about their day and how much they’re able to learn.

00:28:18.898 –> 00:28:22.418
Thanks for joining us as we took the Better Learning Podcast on the road.

00:28:22.658 –> 00:28:29.968
We hope these conversations gave you new ideas, fresh perspectives, and a glimpse into the incredible work happening in learning environments across the country.

00:28:30.618 –> 00:28:37.128
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00:28:37.588 –> 00:28:43.288
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00:28:43.868 –> 00:28:46.928
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