Read Transcript:

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Matt Rogers: Welcome back to the Better Learning Podcast.

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My name is Matt Rogers, and in this special episode, we’re taking you on the road with us to hear directly from members of the A4LE Association for Learning Environments community.

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Over the past several months, we had the opportunity to attend several A4LE regional conferences across the country, connecting with
architects, educators, planners, designers, and industry partners who are all passionate about creating better learning environments.

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At each conference, we asked attendees a few questions: What does it mean to be radically student-centered?

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What are the biggest opportunities and challenges facing educational facility planning and design today?

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What conversations should more people in our industry be having?

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And of course, we threw in a few fun local questions along the way.

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This episode features conversations and insights from afra Ali, Georgia Chapter Conference in Jekyll Island, Georgia

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Without further ado, let’s dive in

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Katie Jubenville: when I say, um, radically student-centered, tell me what that means to you.

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Namrata Dani: So I do, I do like the idea of radically student-centered and serving to the needs of students.

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you know, it’s a little tricky because, as students are growing, their thoughts could be evolving, and we do have to, I’m sure as, educators, parents, uh, designers shape the way their minds grow.

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So there is a little bit of influence that, uh, you do need to guide them into, the right way or finding their own way of thinking.

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Um, so I love the idea of designing environments to nudge them into, being invo- evolved rather than just asking, “Hey, what would you like to see in the
school?” And by the way, we have… Corgan has done workshops, uh, with K-12 students with, uh, Spike Studio, different summer academy, um, uh, workshops.

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And then so we have s- school kids saying, what would their ideal school look like?

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And they usually say, “Well, we, we would love a playground, we would love a grocery store.” Their ideas are all over the place.

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Yes.

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Um, so I do think they need a little guidance, but you know, a lot of playground outdoor learning is something I think, would be very beneficial and they would enjoy that too in schools.

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Jill Hackett: Especially with this age of flex space and how many things can we get, you know?

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And, uh, I won’t say h- how long, how old Jesse and I are, but- … you know, in our time you had the giant auditoriums- Mm-hmm … and, you know, you only use those for so many big things and the one thing, but now it’s how much can we get in this one space?

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So let’s, let’s make it the right thing, and the users wanna use it, and the faculty make it, make it the right way.

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Jesse Frasier: Right.

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And I love the word radical, right?

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Jill Hackett: Yeah.

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I think it’s

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Jesse Frasier: great.

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But, uh, it, it, it makes me think of, um… I know it was a college campus, and I can’t think of which one, where they had a quad and, you know, how you can always see where the, where the sidewalks are.

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So they’d be putting sidewalks in to see what the walking patterns of the students were.

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Katie Jubenville: Ah.

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Jesse Frasier: And then let that go for a month or two, and then you come back and, and, and pave, uh, or sidewalks in that, in that fashion.

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But it’s like, because if you put a sidewalk here and they’re gonna walk somewhere else, it doesn’t make any sense.

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Right.

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So you see what the, what the natural patterns are.

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Hmm.

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And, and that’s what informs the space.

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I think that’s the same way with classrooms.

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You see how kids are… how do they learn?

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Do they sit down?

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Do they move around?

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Moving things around, I think that’s what’s important because every class, every kid’s not the same, so, and every teacher may not want things the same.

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Katie Jubenville: Exactly.

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Right.

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Jesse Frasier: So I think it’s, that’s the, you have four walls, but what you do inside that four walls can be very, very special and very,

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Carissa Shrock Oyedele: it’s really putting the students first, thinking about them and their experiences, how they learn, how they can be the most successful in learning.

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They really need to, to be comfortable in their school, comfortable with their, their spaces, their teachers, their classmates.

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They need to be comfortable in their seats.

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They need to be comfortable in, you know, the air conditioning and everything about the space needs to consider them and how they can be the most successful in their learning journey.

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Heli Shah: I mean, I keep going back to my first, um, interaction with a student ever.

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As a recent graduate of the architecture program, I was w- i- in my first week at CDH and I went to an OAC meeting, and the, the project was wrapping up and the
group of students that were going to be using that space next year brought a box of donuts for us and just thanked us for designing a really cool space for them.

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Katie Jubenville: Oh,

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Heli Shah: perfect.

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And it warmed my heart, and I call it my like donut origin story because- … that’s what kept me in the education realm is knowing that even just a really, really small renovation project could make such a big difference to students.

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And these are f- you know, fourth and fifth graders that a- are gonna be spending so much time in schools, and even something so small is gonna be so important to them.

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And I think that being part of that journey for them is, is so important to me and really understanding, trying to understand what, what kids need these days is important to me.

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So- Yeah … that’s kind of been why I’ve been part of the education studio and being in this, um, this industry.

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I, I think education’s such a big part of it, and I wanna keep designing better spaces for students to succeed.

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Jamie B Case: when I look at children in school And over the, my career in this industry, what I have witnessed is that they shape what happens in multiple environments, right?

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So how a child learns, and we all learn differently, and the fact that we’re now I feel like more recently responding to creating environments that
actually do react to that- that you can move things around and the students can learn in the way that they need to, it shapes so many things, right?

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So what I have seen happen is that they have taught me what kind of environments I need to be designing for their, throughout their entire education.

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You know, their K through 12, but then you get into higher education.

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They get used to a certain environment.

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Yeah.

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They kind of expect to see it when they get there, and then they grow up and they get out into the workforce.

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And when I’m designing office spaces, I have to design office spaces that still react to the way that they’re, they’ve learned and now it’s translated into- Yeah

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how they work, right?

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So choice of place, giving the flexibility to be able to go, uh, and make a space your own.

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So I, I think they are teaching all of us what we need to be doing.

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And to Haley’s point when we first started this, if we’re willing to listen and react to it, I mean, just think, just think what we could do with all of that.

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Katie Jubenville: Yeah.

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Jamie B Case: Right?

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Dawn Hill: Well, just hearing that phrase, my heart beats up.

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I get excited because I feel like that’s somebody that is totally thinking outside the box and not trying to think about, oh, let’s make this nice square classroom, and we want 50 of ’em that look just alike.

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Um, to me, that says someone is thinking about what the students that are gonna be inside that room need.

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And every student cannot learn in a square classroom that looks just like everybody else’s.

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Um, we do have to make adjustments and changes for students to be able to learn and to be able to be integrated with the gen ed population.

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But they don’t have to be on a hall by their self to have that done.

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We can, we can make some s- small changes within their room on that very same hall so that, you know, they can be out and change classes and see their peers and come into a room that meets all of their needs.

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And, you know, it can be, furniture with movement that’s not disruptive, but allows them to move, um, as they need to.

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It may be, uh, you have to have a different type of lighting.

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You know, do away with that fluorescent lighting with that hum.

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Um, I am an adult with ADD, um, and so there may be some others listening that understand what I’m talking about.

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But if I ever a- am busy working and I catch that hum from a fluorescent light, it’s all I can concentrate on.

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you know, it’s little things like that.

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placement of cabinets, and furniture.

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Flooring, um, instead of, you know, just the red, you know, the regular shiny hard floors, we have something a little spongy, gives them some sensory, needs met when they’re walking on it.

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Mm-hmm.

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It is also protection if they’re a student that may, you know, have a medical issue or that may, you know, just have, um, some behaviors where they may drop, you know, and could, you know, possibly fall.

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It’s not gonna be the same as landing on a mattress, but it is more protective.

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you know, we can just, we can do these things to help them, and, um, all of this helps them to regulate their self.

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You know, um, just the m- the movement furniture is a huge thing.

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It allows them, you know, to have that movement.

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They’re not disrupting the class, uh, they’re not making noises, they’re learning.

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They’re taking everything in, but they’re, they have to have that movement, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

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That’s the way they learn.

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And, you know, just when I hear that phrase when you use it, I mean, I just automatically, my ears perked up.

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You know, it just sounds like exactly what neurodivergent students need across the board.

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Katie Jubenville: So at a high level, what does a strong partnership between design firms and educational leaders look like, and why does it matter?

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Namrata Dani: something I’m learning through working with DeKalb County projects is there’s a disconnect with, uh, the educators and the designers.

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‘Cause you know, a lot of times we work directly with the school district’s representative, and we don’t directly work with the teachers, although they are part of the design charrettes and meetings to some extent.

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But a lot of times for renovation projects, we don’t get to interface with the, um, end user, the teachers, students, as much as we should, I believe.

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Um, and then there’s also the aspect of where does the funding come from?

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Who is on the school board, and what do they think, the school needs?

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So y- there are so many parties that are involved in the decision-making and when… what makes a school design happen So for everybody to talk
to each other, I think conference, this conference is such a great platform for everyone to come together and just start having a dialogue.

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Because I know the facilities people, when we start chatting with them, they are all about systems and how can the building perform efficiently.

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So everybody is passionate about what they think is the best solution for the students and, and users, uh, admin people.

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Um, so we do need to think and just kinda start a conversation with all, uh, people from all backgrounds that ultimately touch or are involved in planning of the school.

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Heli Shah: I think my answer’s gonna sound really simple, but I, I think it’s really important to just lean in and listen.

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Step one in any partnership is really important to understand where the other person’s coming from, and listen to what they need, and then take all that back.

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we do a lot of community engagement sessions, and we do a lot of visioning sessions with school districts, and we always encourage teachers
and students and staff from the teams to come attend these visioning sessions because it’s really those people that shape each school.

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And each school is different, even within a district, and I think it’s really important to, um, bring everyone that’s going to be in that facility, in that space, to the table to, to talk about it.

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Katie Jubenville: what is something that students experience every day in a school building that most adults completely overlook?

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Namrata Dani: Yeah.

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I think the generation of students now are very, uh, interactive and into the digital age.

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Uh, although the smart technology is being incorporated into teacher classrooms and using a smart board and having all kinds of, uh, different sensory experiences for different ways of teaching, uh, although that’s great, I think
using that immersive touchscreen technology and incorporating that and balancing that with outdoor learning time, is something that, v- you know, as people shape their curriculum, um, that’s something that needs to evolve eventually.

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Heli Shah: this is going to be a really interesting answer, but the one comment I get when we’re doing visioning sessions or we’re talking to the st- students are how bathrooms are designed.

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I will promise you, every conversation I’ve had with a student, they have brought up bathrooms, that they want safe, clean, working restrooms.

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And I think that’s something that we as architects probably don’t wanna spend a lot of time designing or don’t wanna focus on.

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But again, going back to that safety, it- it’s not just physical safety, but it’s mental, and they wanna feel safe in their school, including their, their restrooms.

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So I think that’s a big part of their every day, and little things like that need a lot more focus than maybe s- you know, we’re used to, um- Right

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on other projects or other types of buildings.

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Katie Jubenville: Can you share an example where a challenge arose during construction and how your team helped turn it into a successful outcome?

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Jesse Frasier: Yeah.

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Um, working on a, it was a K through eight project and, um, they wanted both an auditorium and then they wanted a gym.

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But as, as Jules mentioned, funding wasn’t there.

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So we had to work with the design team and the construction team to say, “What, what can we do creatively to be able to give them what they want?” So that’s where the whole gymatorium type of project come.

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Mm-hmm.

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So how can they get everybody into this area with, um, you know, the whole school in there, but also have basketball courts in there and a stage.

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We were able to combine all those into one, one room, um, that was able to do that.

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But we also were able to get bleachers donated to us from a school that was closing.

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Perfect.

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So now there were gonna be bleachers in there.

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We were able to fit those in there.

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So it really made, you know, I guess we’re lemonade out of the lemons,

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Katie Jubenville: right?

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Mm-hmm.

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Jesse Frasier: And, but it worked out for everybody and, and the, the school loves it, so.

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And

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Katie Jubenville: what trends or innovations in school design excite you the most?

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Carissa Shrock Oyedele: I love how technology is changing and, and just bettering the school.

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We do have to be careful, right, that students aren’t on their devices and, you know, glued to their screen.

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It is a challenge.

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But I love how technology as a tool is just one more resource.

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And now with AI really in- integrating more, it is so exciting to me that these kids who are seven, eight, nine, m- my son is eight years old, he’s learning how to code and do all these incredible things with robotics.

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And it just is so exciting to me how, how education is completely different than when I was his age, primarily due to technology, AI, and all of these incredible, advances in our, in our society.

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It’s, it’s very exciting.

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Katie Jubenville: What are some of the most common mistakes districts make during the planning and construction process, and how can they avoid them?

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Jesse Frasier: Not having the right people at the table at the right time.

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So you either are trying to move too fast or sometimes you’re moving too slow, but it’s not having the right…

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You know, sometimes you need to have the facilities folks at the table when you’re discussing long-term utilization of the building.

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And then other times you need to have the teachers at the table to understand what’s gonna be the program in the space.

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And even, even the students.

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You know, what are, how are they gonna interact in the space?

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So I think it’s, for us, we’re able to lead the project because we’ve done so many of them, that we know when to bring the right people to the table for the conversation needs to be had.

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And then also, having money.

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Jill Hackett: Funding is a big thing.

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Little park.

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And it’s, well, it’s, it’s hard.

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And it’s very hard, and a lot of times, you know, you have big dreams and, and things that you really want, and we all do, but it, it, we gotta make sure that
funding’s there so we can, you know, at the end, it also will take up less time to get that project moving forward if we know what our right allocation of funds are.

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Katie Jubenville: so what messages does a building send to students?

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And then we’ll also ta- then we’ll get into the teachers- Yeah.

00:18:03.416 –> 00:18:04.726
No, that’s right up my alley … and the, the community.

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I mean, you kinda hit on it, but let’s- So the- … let’s, let’s talk a little deeper about that.

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Heli Shah: That’s such a good question because we talk about teachers, and we talk about the staff, and we talk about the district, but I think even if the students are gonna be transient in that space, they’re so important to be, again, brought to the table.

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the spaces that we design are really unique to today’s environment, and just being able to provide a space where each student can learn
differently and in their own way is important, um, because I know I learn differently than Jamie probably learns or you probably learn.

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And just being able to provide different spaces for different needs and different people is really important.

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Dawn Hill: I feel like the correct building should be one that the kids want to run to get into.

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It should feel like a second home in many cases.

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It is more of a home, um, for some students, sadly.

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Mm-hmm.

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it should be comfortable and warm and welcoming.

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Um, it shouldn’t feel cold and sterile.

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It shouldn’t feel like they’re going to the doctor’s office, someplace that scares them.

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It just should be just a warm, cozy feeling.

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Um, I think that helps them to feel safe, um, and nurtured and loved.

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Katie Jubenville: What about for the teachers?

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I mean, what, what message do you think the building sends to the teachers?

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Heli Shah: I, I think the big part is being able to kinda pause.

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Uh, teachers spend so much time, so much energy, more than we can even imagine, into these students and into their jobs.

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Being able to find a space for them to pause and reflect, and learn themselves, because they’re, they constantly have to learn and change the way they teach.

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Um, and being able to pivot and, and engage students in today’s environment with so much technology, so many different, distractions they might have, is also really important.

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So being able to provide that for the teachers in our buildings is just as important as being able to provide the spaces for the students.

00:20:19.031 –> 00:20:19.121
Jamie B Case: Yeah.

00:20:19.121 –> 00:20:35.161
I do, I do think it’s pretty critical from, from the teacher perspective, that they have a space where they can flip it, change it, rearrange it, but do it in a way that sticks within a consistency of, of learning, right- Mm-hmm

00:20:35.161 –> 00:20:36.301
for each child.

00:20:36.311 –> 00:20:36.331
Yeah.

00:20:36.411 –> 00:20:41.521
So that they’re able to offer all of those different scenarios, because every kid is different.

00:20:41.828 –> 00:20:44.688
so the teachers need to be able to have an environment in which they can do that.

00:20:44.978 –> 00:20:47.038
I think another big, important thing is safety.

00:20:47.088 –> 00:20:48.658
I mean, for the teachers and-

00:20:48.988 –> 00:20:49.188
Katie Jubenville: Yeah

00:20:49.208 –> 00:20:55.128
… Jamie B Case: for the, the students, the administrators, all of them need to feel a, a sense of safety when they get in there.

00:20:55.198 –> 00:20:58.028
‘Cause let’s face it, they’re spending a lot of time there together, right?

00:20:58.048 –> 00:21:09.033
So they need to feel grounded in that environment and know that they’ve entered into a place that’s sort of, maybe not necessarily an extension of their home, but that they, they feel that safety- Oh, yeah … when they’re there.

00:21:09.033 –> 00:21:09.248
Yeah.

00:21:09.248 –> 00:21:09.468
So.

00:21:10.735 –> 00:21:35.538
Dawn Hill: I think when we’re able to give the teachers the things they need in that classroom, you know, the secure cabinetry, um, storage areas that are secure,
just to kind of, you know, take it down a level, make it, you know, where things are not so readily available for students just to be able to, you know, get into.

00:21:35.824 –> 00:21:40.126
I think that lets a teacher know that their time is important.

00:21:40.706 –> 00:22:09.596
They’re not gonna be expected to chase students from object to object or area to area, that they are gonna be able to teach, and w- that we’re doing these things to make their room better for th-
you know, better for them as well, so that they can do more teaching and more one-on-one time with students, and not up, just playing a game of chase, trying to redirect students all day long.

00:22:10.826 –> 00:22:22.536
Katie Jubenville: So we are on Jekyll Island this week, and I have to ask, if you could spend one day on the island doing anything you wanted with no responsibilities, no worries, what are you doing?

00:22:23.076 –> 00:22:23.666
Namrata Dani: Yeah.

00:22:24.006 –> 00:22:38.746
Um, so I love biking, uh, primarily because, you know, you can cover a lot more distance in a short time, and I just love the breeze on your face and enjoying, um, the ocean breeze and the trees and shade, all of it.

00:22:38.866 –> 00:22:46.216
And the island is such a great small island, uh, so you can literally bike everything in maybe half an hour.

00:22:46.216 –> 00:22:51.966
I actually did that the last time I came to, uh, J.F. Early Conference.

00:22:52.316 –> 00:23:17.976
So I would definitely start by, uh, seeing a sunrise on the beach, maybe St. Andrews Beach on the south, and then go up north, uh, go up to the, um, Driftwood Beach, and
then maybe, uh, check out a little bit of the history and see the historic houses, enjoy the Spanish moss, and then just kinda, uh, yeah, explore Jekyll Island further.

00:23:18.026 –> 00:23:22.596
But I would also love to get, um, see their tur- turtle center.

00:23:23.136 –> 00:23:30.476
And I know they have a specific time where they, uh, release the turtles, and I would have to research that, but would love to explore that.

00:23:31.611 –> 00:23:31.941
Jill Hackett: Let me go

00:23:41.367 –> 00:23:47.107
I’d love to sit in one of those beautiful antebellum homes, 1800 homes, and feel the breeze and just watch the sunset.

00:23:47.467 –> 00:23:48.107
Katie Jubenville: Perfect.

00:23:49.307 –> 00:23:49.697
Jesse Frasier: Just give me the beach

00:23:52.841 –> 00:23:58.001
Carissa Shrock Oyedele: There is so much to do here that I have not been able to explore yet.

00:23:58.081 –> 00:24:11.191
Uh, but probably what I would love to do most is to wake up really early, take a great cup of coffee to Driftwood Beach, and watch the sunrise and just chill.

00:24:11.691 –> 00:24:13.701
Just chill there with coffee.

00:24:13.701 –> 00:24:18.041
And I’ve just heard it’s a beautiful part of the island, and I need to m- make it over there.

00:24:19.407 –> 00:24:39.987
Heli Shah: I feel like I love the beach and I love the water, so I’m gonna try to wake up for a sunrise, and I try to do that at least
once every time I’m at Jekyll, and go in for an awesome breakfast, take a little afternoon nap, and then go to the Turtle Conservatory.

00:24:40.217 –> 00:24:40.547
Katie Jubenville: Oh, yes.

00:24:40.587 –> 00:24:42.977
Heli Shah: I haven’t been, but I’ve heard- That’s a great-

00:24:42.987 –> 00:24:48.137
I’ve heard great things, and I’m hoping it’s an interactive experience, ’cause I love one of those.

00:24:49.077 –> 00:24:56.737
Jamie B Case: So I’ve been coming to Jekyll for quite a number of years at various conferences, and my family always tags along.

00:24:57.017 –> 00:25:02.287
While I’m off doing the work things, they’re off playing and going to see the turtles and doing all of the fun things.

00:25:02.297 –> 00:25:07.420
So I, my day, like, I love the walk on the beach in the morning to see that sunrise.

00:25:07.420 –> 00:25:07.710
Mm-hmm.

00:25:07.710 –> 00:25:13.690
And usually if I can get the crew up with me and the four of us are doing our thing, it makes it even better.

00:25:14.090 –> 00:25:19.400
I will not leave here tomorrow without going and playing a round of putt-putt.

00:25:19.410 –> 00:25:19.420
Ah.

00:25:20.010 –> 00:25:23.320
So we will be hitting the little putt-putt course.

00:25:23.390 –> 00:25:23.730
Yeah.

00:25:24.620 –> 00:25:25.980
As little as it is.

00:25:27.120 –> 00:25:27.160
Oh, gosh.

00:25:27.160 –> 00:25:31.150
It’s not, like, an extravagant, you’re at Disney kind of putt-putt, right?

00:25:31.180 –> 00:25:35.540
But that is something that our family has done for years, and I can’t leave here without doing that.

00:25:36.837 –> 00:25:44.827
Dawn Hill: Well, I would actually wanna do something that probably does have some responsibilities because I am a huge animal lover.

00:25:45.217 –> 00:25:48.797
I would wanna be at the sea turtle rescue center.

00:25:49.507 –> 00:25:51.277
I would love to be over there.

00:25:51.317 –> 00:26:00.267
I would love to be working with those sea turtles and removing barnacles off of ’em, and just getting them ready to be re-released.

00:26:00.317 –> 00:26:04.487
That would be the ideal thing I could do on this island if I had time.

00:26:05.854 –> 00:26:09.374
Thanks for joining us as we took the Better Learning Podcast on the road.

00:26:09.614 –> 00:26:16.924
We hope these conversations gave you new ideas, fresh perspectives, and a glimpse into the incredible work happening in learning environments across the country.

00:26:17.574 –> 00:26:24.084
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to like, subscribe, and leave us a comment sharing your favorite insight or where you’d like to see us record next time.

00:26:24.544 –> 00:26:30.244
You can find more episodes, additional resources, and learn more about the show at betterlearningpodcast.com.

00:26:30.824 –> 00:26:33.884
Thanks for being a part of the Better Learning community, and we’ll see you next time.