Read Transcript:

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Matt Rogers: Welcome back to the “Better Learning Podcast.” My name is Matt Rogers.

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Um, it’s been a couple weeks since I’ve been your host here on the podcast, but I’m excited to dive back into it.

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Um, and then we’ve also got our co-host, Brian, who is, uh, probably right before this episode, we’re gonna have releasing some of the A for LE content that’s gonna be going out.

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Brian was a huge, um, advocate for being the host on that, that, those episodes there.

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So super excited to bring him back on.

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I’ll let you do a quick intro, Brian.

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Uh, excited to have you on and joining me.

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Dr. Brian McCraw: Cool.

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Thanks, Matt.

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What a wonderful intro.

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Uh, once again, Dr. Brian McCraw, education market leader here with, uh, K12.

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And, uh, spent some time, uh, doing podcasts in the past, and so Matt has asked me to join in with you guys for the party and the fun here on a Friday afternoon.

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So I’m excited to be here with you guys to learn more about, uh, what’s happening in the world of, uh, not only educational leadership, but also design and collaboration.

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So Matt, thanks for the intro, and back to you

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Matt Rogers: Awesome.

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Yeah, and we’ve got two incredible guests.

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So this is an episode we’ve been super excited to, to get in.

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So Jana reached out, um, and I’m kind of giving a little bit of a s- a slight intro here to her.

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Uh, but she reached out with an incredible story with the Joy School.

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And if you’re not familiar, this is gonna be an incredible insight to their amazing school and some of the incredible features that they have there.

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Um, they’re located in Houston.

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Uh, but I’m gonna start with you, Shara.

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Uh, please give us an intro of yourself and, uh, yeah, a little bit of your background and how you got into the work that you’re doing now.

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Shara Bumgarner: hi, I’m Shara Bumgarner.

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I am one of the co-founders of the Joy School in Houston, Texas.

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Um, the Joy School is a K through eight school for kids with learning differences.

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Our mission is to prepare students with learning differences to return to traditional classroom settings by enabling them to reach their academic and social potential in a safe, supportive environment.

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In layman’s terms, we take kids who’ve been struggling, we fix what can be fixed through remediation, we give them strategies for the rest, and then we send them back.

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Sometimes we send them back to the schools from which they came.

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More often than not, we actually help families figure out what the next best place is going to be for them.

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Um, but we’re very much a transition place, so most kids are with us for three to five years, and we give them the help that they need, and then we, um, send them back to, you know, traditional schools of all kinds, um, all across the city.

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And, um, we now have adult alums who are in their 30s with their own kids.

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And so, um, you know, they’ve gone to colleges across the country, and they’re living all over the world now.

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So, um, but yes, that is what I do.

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We’ve been around since ’97, and we have, we typically have about 150 to 160 students a year.

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And one of the crazy things with this mission is that, um, about 45 kids leave every year.

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So we leave about, lose about a third of our population every single year.

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And, um, it’s a, obviously a great mission, but it’s a terrible business model, quite frankly.

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Dr. Brian McCraw: Yeah.

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That’s interesting

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Matt Rogers: amazing.

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Yeah, that’s amazing, and I’m, I’m excited to dive a little bit deeper into that.

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Uh, but before we do that, um, um, we obvi- obviously are the, the podcast for A4LE, so we also like to take, um, our episodes and kind of also understand the design aspect, um, from schools.

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And we’re so lucky to also introduce our second guest here today.

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Um, I’m gonna let her do a little intro of herself.

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Um, but yeah, we’re super excited to kinda hear the perspectives of the design side too.

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Uh, but Jan, I’ll let you, uh, kinda do your intro as well

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Janann Pittman: Great, thanks.

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Um, my name is Janan Pittman.

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I’m a principal with Jackson and Ryan Architects here in Houston.

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Um, we have a practice, um, that hits many disciplines from, uh, museums and multifamily, higher ed.

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Uh, but my component is really, um, the community-focused, um, and ideally child-focused.

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So it’s, churches and schools and, and I’m super lucky in that when I am doing schools, it’s not the big public ISDs, quite honestly.

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It’s the private independent schools and, and that’s really fabulous and, um, makes me really spoiled because I’m designing for teachers and schools that already exist, for communities that already exist.

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So it’s, it’s really– it’s an opportunity to do something very particular to them as opposed to, you know, um, elementary school number 55 in the district or something.

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Um, so, um, it’s, it’s very specific and I, I love each one of my schools, um, and every single one is different.

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Um, I particularly am excited about, um, always coming to the Joy School because, I mean, it is so much fun here.

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Um, but also because, um, you know, it, it… I believe so much in their mission, and I totally understand how, how very different they are.

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I have, uh, I have two boys who are twins and, um, obviously they both had the same impact in terms of, um, learning and reading at home and so forth, and yet one read early, one read later.

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Um, one is, uh, classically identified as learning, uh, having, having a learning difference, um, dyslexia.

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but I think actually everybody learns differently, so why can’t we make the design, the buildings, the schools reflective of that?

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It doesn’t have to be you get this, you know, the stamp.

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I had one parent tell me by the time my son was diagnosed with, diagnosed with dyslexia, um, everybody gets something by fifth grade.

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So, um, you know, then I thought there was something maybe wrong with my other son ’cause I hadn’t figured out what that, that thing was.

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So anyway, um, so that’s sort of the direction I come from.

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But this is definitely schools, children, community, this is my passion.

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Matt Rogers: That’s incredible.

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Um, well, we talked about, um, Charra, I know you kind of mentioned the Joy School opened in ’97.

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Um, I was actually born in ’97, and just like, yep, yeah, that’s showing my age now.

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Um, but I was a– I’m actually a twin as well.

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Um, and, um, I’m super, I’m super excited ’cause what you just said definitely resonates with me.

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my sister and I, like, we’re k- two completely different, you know, opposites, especially when it comes to learning and how we kind of digest information, and then just even, like, our personalities, it’s completely different.

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So, um, I can definitely see that, where you come from there and, and it definitely has kind of led me on my career path to what I’m doing now.

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So, um, yeah, super excited to dive into this, this conversation.

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Um, Brian, I don’t know.

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I’ll pass it off to you.

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I don’t know if you’ve got, um, any places you want to start, but

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Dr. Brian McCraw: do.

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I’m, I’m, I’m fascinated with this conversation.

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So, uh, ladies, I was not born in 1997, so just gonna let you know that.

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Uh, my daughter was born in 1996, and my son in 1998.

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So man, I’m just thrilled to be here with you guys, and I’m really anxious to hear more about especially the Joy School and, and Jana, your involvement in, in the design and, and, and everything that goes into that.

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Um, actually, Shara, I emailed you guys about a week ago.

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I’m not sure if you… I know you get 35, 40 emails a day, but I reached out to you guys- Yeah … about a week

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Shara Bumgarner: were that easy

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Dr. Brian McCraw: So when I saw your name on, on the attendee list, I was

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Janann Pittman: Does

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Dr. Brian McCraw: like, “Man, this is great,” so I have a chance to actually talk to her and everything.

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So really what I’m looking at is, is, um, um, really it’s… I guess it’s for both of you guys, because y- you guys have been a part of this for a long time, since ’97.

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So how did you guys go about coming up with this idea of, of the Joy School, and then the design methodology that has already… that now we’re talking almost 30 years, has gotten you to where you’re, you’re at now?

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I’ve, I’ve looked at the website and, and I’m intrigued on how this all started and then how you got here.

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And then I have a question about the voucher system, uh, later, uh, as a follow-up.

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So anyway, tell me how this got started and how you decided to design things, because your, your target student base is very, very unique, filled with a whole lot of unique learning styles and different forms of discipline and everything.

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So I was… That, that intrigues me as a former educator and, you know, I’ve been a principal and a superintendent.

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I, I’m anxious to hear, uh, how you guys, how you got here in the first place.

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Shara Bumgarner: So I will try to be as succinct as possible.

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but the short story is I was a public school teacher.

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you know, I went to school and I took my first early childhood class and, like, I felt like the, the clouds parted and the angels sang ’cause I knew exactly what I wanted to do.

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I wanted to be a kindergarten teacher.

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I wanted to teach kids to read.

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I was gonna save the world, you know.

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And as soon as I got into public education, I realized, “Wow, they didn’t teach me anything.” you know, there were so many kids that I didn’t know how to help, or I didn’t realize, the broad range of kiddos that I would have in one classroom.

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cutting to the chase, I was always drawn to the kids who– What I saw was that the system was fine for kids who learned easily, and the system had supports in place for kids who really needed a lot of extra help or, were, had complicated profiles, right?

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And, um, it kind of fascinated me that the kiddos that just because of the nature of their disabilities were- didn’t– there really wasn’t hope for them to live independently or, be productive members of society in the traditional sense.

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There were plenty of resources for them, but then I would have a kiddo that was just a little bit behind and, you know, in kindergarten and first grade, which is what I taught, you, you can only be so far behind, right?

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There’s– You haven’t missed that much, right?

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But there was nothing in place for those kids.

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And so at that time, kids had to wait until third grade before the district would even do testing to identify kids.

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And, you know, if a child goes through kinder, first, second, and third grade struggling and not having their needs met, not only does it affect them academically, but then it starts to felt- fee- affect how they feel about themselves.

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Dr. Brian McCraw: I had that same conversation with, uh, former educators about that as well.

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And the fallout from No Child Left Behind got us to that point where there was a massive amount of focus on the high, high, high achievers,
and then there was an even bigger focus on those kids with certain learning disabilities that qualified under special ed or even Section 504.

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But the kids that you’re mentioning, the ones that are kinda, you know, in between, maybe a little lower, those are the ones that really got left behind.

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And so when I was looking at the Joy School, I was like, that– they’re getting them caught back up.

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And I think that’s something that public schools have failed to do for a long time

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Shara Bumgarner: Yes.

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Um, I can’t remember what the study was, but, um, years and years ago, there was, data that came out that essentially said that kiddos that were receiving services in public school in third and fourth grade never got out of the system.

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You know, they stayed behind in that way.

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and You know, going back to how we got this started, I was public school, I was frustrated, you know, I was drawn to the kids who needed a
little extra and could– they– was just kind of wondering like, why if we just gave them extra right now, they wouldn’t need it long term.

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and fortunately, with my connections from University of Houston, um, one of whom was Dr. Jerome Rosner, who was an optometrist by trade, who had done 40 years of research in kids with learning differences.

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he had started the school in Pittsburgh and was talking t- with a family that we mutually knew, and, um, they were looking for a school that didn’t exist.

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You know, their daughter, they knew they didn’t want their daughter in public school because of her special needs, and none of the private schools in Houston were really gonna be able to accommodate her needs at that time.

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And so, you know, the original idea was I was just going to work with their child and, um, through maybe two dinners, Dr.

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Rosner made it sound like, “Oh yeah, we can just start a school.” And I was young and idealistic and naive enough to say, “Okay, I’ll do it.” And so truly, that’s kind of the limits of my thoughts ahead of time.

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Um, I just wanted to help kids.

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But, we ended up starting the school with four kids.

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Took a couple from my public school and another who had gone through Dr. Rosner’s clinic, and then our founding family, and we started the school with four kids.

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And truly, the only thing that those kids had in common was that they hadn’t done well in school before.

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They were six, seven, eight, and nine.

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They were all, all different grade levels, um, so ranging really from kinder to third grade.

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and I just taught them, and that was kind of Dr. Ro- if I had to say anything that Dr. Rosner taught me, it was that, like, um, it doesn’t matter what the child’s diagnosis is or what the test scores say.

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Teaching is a verb, so take the kid you got and teach them.

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And, um, that’s what we did, and by the end of the year, they were all reading and, um, not without challenges along the way.

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Um, I learned that, um, you know, in my regular class I could say, “Ooh, I like the way Johnny’s sitting. Ooh, I like the way Sally is listening,” and other kids would, you know, kind of fall in line.

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and with kids who needed to be directly taught all kinds of things, that didn’t happen.

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So, um, I had to be much more creative, um, in making that happen.

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So, started the school with four kids.

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By the end of the year, they were all reading.

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The only marketing we did was to speech and language pathologists in Houston, and the second year we had three classrooms of six.

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The next year we had 30.

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The next year we had 42, and we just kept growing and, um Kind of stopped at about 150-ish now, partly

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Dr. Brian McCraw: where you guys are– I’m sorry to interrupt.

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Is that where you guys are maxed out at, at about 150 spaces?

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Shara Bumgarner: So we actually have room for about 175.

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Um, the last couple of years things have been quieter, and I think a big part of that is that m- more schools are putting in learning centers for kids with learning differences, which is fantastic for kids.

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but we’re h- still having a huge demand for our middle school, and so we’re making adjustments in class placements to accommodate that need.

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Matt Rogers: Yeah.

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Well, I, I definitely wanna get a little bit deeper now, like understanding the history of the school.

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One of the things, um, that we kind of like evaluate, so we, we got your request in.

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One of the things that like really caught my eye is how you, you mentioned that, that you all kind of really offer like a child-centered educational model.

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So I wanna like really hear and dive in a little bit deeper of like now today, uh, give us a little background of like what the day-to-day kind of looks like for students, uh, you know, fast-forward to today.

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Shara Bumgarner: um, The Joy School is 100% about, individualization and seeing kids as individuals with different needs.

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And again, all of our kids come with some kind of diagnosis, um, and sometimes they are, those diagnoses are really accurate, and sometimes they are not.

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You know, we work to figure out, okay, what else is going on?

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What else n- that needs to be addressed?

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Um, and not in the sense of what other labels does this child need, right?

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What to call it.

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It’s more about how do they function in the classroom, and what kinds of accommodations, what kinds of direct instruction that we can give them and teach, or tools that they can use to be independent.

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Our whole goal is independence.

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Our whole goal is mainstreaming and, you know, having them leave us.

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Um, and so from the, from day one, that’s what we’re focused on is, you know, what is it going to take to make them su-successful, and then how do we build independence in that?

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So, when we take kids in, again, all of our kids have some kind of diagnoses.

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Um, but when we accept kiddos, we are not just filling a third-grade class or filling a fourth-grade class.

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Um, for one, uh, the number of spots in which grade level is a constantly moving target, right?

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Because kids come and go at different ages and leave at different ages.

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So we might have four fourth-grade classes this year, but we might only have three next year, or we might have five.

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Who knows?

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but when we do group kids, we are grouping kids based on the kind of instruction they need.

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So it’s not necessarily based on their diagnosis.

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we take a lot of consideration into, um, their chronological age, but we have the flexibility of going back to fourth grade.

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If we have four fourth-grade classes, each one of those fourth-grade class groups of students could have a slightly different focus.

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So, we might have kids who are really struggling readers who, um, really need more intensive, you know, Orton-Gillingham-based instruction.

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you know, the same age kids next door might be, might sound like great readers, but they really struggle with comprehension.

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That requires a completely different kind of instruction.

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Um, some kids, you know, down the hall might, um, reading may not be part of their struggles at all.

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They might have, struggles really related to math.

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Um, other kids might it’s not really the content that gets in their way, but it might be their processing speed, that they’re, they need a much slower pace to learn the same material.

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It just takes them longer, and so we can’t, go as quickly or cover as much material in the same amount of time.

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and so that’s how we group kids.

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then because our goal is to get them back into traditional schools where there will likely be in-group instruction, then we teach those kids as a group.

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And so it’s not six kids doing six different things with one teacher and everybody being isolated.

00:17:38.370 –> 00:17:45.078
It’s much more about, um, being with kids who have similar needs and, working in that way.

00:17:45.614 –> 00:17:48.704
that doesn’t mean that we don’t do different things for different kids.

00:17:48.714 –> 00:17:57.691
So, um, one of our– We have a culture wall that helps us, Um, operationalize things that we believe and how we work together.

00:17:57.701 –> 00:18:11.541
And one of the tiles is, “It depends.” And we use it as an interview question, um, we talk about it with parent- on parent tours, but that is kind of a core philosophy is, “It depends.”

00:18:11.571 –> 00:18:16.311
And so when parents ask us how much homework load, you know, what does the homework load look like?

00:18:16.311 –> 00:18:17.801
What math program do we use?

00:18:18.111 –> 00:18:21.721
How do you handle behavior or discipline issues?

00:18:21.781 –> 00:18:27.791
Our answer every single time is, “It depends.” And it doesn’t mean that we’ll decide at some point, right?

00:18:27.791 –> 00:18:29.501
We’re not- It’s not that we’re being flaky.

00:18:29.771 –> 00:18:33.011
It’s that we have lots of options, and it depends.

00:18:33.031 –> 00:18:35.311
It depends on what that child needs.

00:18:35.311 –> 00:18:39.181
It depends on, you know, any number of factors.

00:18:39.321 –> 00:18:43.301
Um, but that’s part of the magic of being at the Joy School is that we have that flexibility.

00:18:43.561 –> 00:18:45.971
There is no one-size-fits-all for anything.

00:18:46.531 –> 00:18:55.821
And I will tell you, teachers will say that the, both the best part about working at the Joy School and the most difficult part about working at the Joy School is it depends.

00:18:57.241 –> 00:18:57.261
So

00:18:57.799 –> 00:19:04.199
Dr. Brian McCraw: similar to what we do at K12 when it comes to, uh, collaborating, designing furniture and for learning spaces.

00:19:04.389 –> 00:19:05.639
Well, how much is this gonna cost?

00:19:06.149 –> 00:19:07.079
Well, it depends.

00:19:07.509 –> 00:19:10.449
Depends on what you want, you know, but we can make it happen either way.

00:19:10.729 –> 00:19:13.109
Well, man, that’s, uh, that’s, that’s fantastic stuff.

00:19:13.439 –> 00:19:16.449
Um, I guess, Janan, this is probably for you.

00:19:17.111 –> 00:19:22.431
in your own words, we have this theme at K12 called Radically Student-Centered.

00:19:22.441 –> 00:19:23.951
In fact, you’ve probably seen it on my shirt here.

00:19:23.951 –> 00:19:31.071
So, uh, one thing we do at, at K12 is we’re 100% focused on what’s best for students at all times, no matter what we do.

00:19:31.071 –> 00:19:44.161
And, and everything that we do and everything that we think of when it comes to our collaboration and design and implementation of whatever
plan we’ve come up with, uh, a particular learning space, no matter what it is, we have this thing called Radically Student-Centered.

00:19:44.241 –> 00:19:55.921
And, uh, I just wanted to kinda throw that over to you and see what does radically student-centered mean when it comes to design of a school or a certain learning space?

00:19:55.971 –> 00:20:02.721
Uh, it could be from a, a, a classroom to a, a cafetorium to, um, I don’t know, an outdoor learning area.

00:20:02.931 –> 00:20:06.421
So I just wanted to see what, what radically student-centered means to you guys

00:20:07.991 –> 00:20:09.421
Janann Pittman: Um, okay.

00:20:09.431 –> 00:20:14.301
So, um, I– for me, radically student-centered varies based on who my client is.

00:20:14.431 –> 00:20:18.351
So for the Joy School, it’s obviously very, very different than everybody else.

00:20:18.553 –> 00:20:19.953
Dr. Brian McCraw: So it, so it depends, right?

00:20:19.963 –> 00:20:20.423
Like what, what

00:20:20.423 –> 00:20:20.823
Charla

00:20:20.871 –> 00:20:20.941
Janann Pittman: depends.

00:20:21.731 –> 00:20:23.121
I’m gonna be using that a lot now.

00:20:23.371 –> 00:20:25.001
I probably said that more than I realized already.

00:20:25.491 –> 00:20:27.231
Um, so, so yeah.

00:20:27.231 –> 00:20:29.011
So, uh, it, it totally depends.

00:20:29.061 –> 00:20:35.801
And, um, I think it goes back to, um, like when we started designing for, um, The Joy School, we did a master plan.

00:20:35.971 –> 00:20:41.741
We did their second building and additions to their first and their master plan, but we did not do their first building.

00:20:42.091 –> 00:20:49.186
But we looked at their, uh, first building knowing that, um, they had typically, um, six kids, per classroom.

00:20:49.616 –> 00:20:51.106
Um, the classrooms were smaller.

00:20:51.323 –> 00:20:56.953
but they had a real s- space problem in the sense that, you know, a teacher’s desk is always the same size.

00:20:57.003 –> 00:20:58.443
A sink is always the same size.

00:20:58.453 –> 00:21:04.133
The bookcases aren’t suddenly gonna get smaller and shrink by, you know, to a quarter of what the others are.

00:21:04.453 –> 00:21:09.413
Um, and so how do you get all those standard-sized components into a smaller classroom?

00:21:09.863 –> 00:21:14.793
And, and then beyond that, like how can they teach such that they are in all these different positions?

00:21:14.793 –> 00:21:21.743
So we do this for every single one of our clients, um, whether there’s 18 kids, you know, 28, or, um, six in a classroom.

00:21:22.103 –> 00:21:25.973
Um, so you need to test it, you know, make sure it fits, the furniture fits and so forth.

00:21:26.417 –> 00:21:35.687
you know, the, the other part to it is, you know, here they’re teaching every single child differently, but so many of their classrooms were the same exact size, and that became a limiting factor for them.

00:21:35.687 –> 00:21:41.117
So how, how can we make those rooms bigger, um, and what’s appropriate for that learning environment?

00:21:41.127 –> 00:21:48.657
They also have, um, these sort of like larger offices, um, with tons of light, and they’re grouped together so it doesn’t feel like it’s an office.

00:21:48.657 –> 00:21:54.177
It’s, it’s these kind of amazing rooms where, um, I guess what I would call intervention happens.

00:21:54.487 –> 00:21:59.627
Um, and, uh, um, they seemed like, you know, oh, teacher and student.

00:21:59.677 –> 00:22:00.247
Okay, fine.

00:22:00.557 –> 00:22:03.527
Well, sometimes there are three students, sometimes there’s four.

00:22:03.767 –> 00:22:06.607
And they said would really like for them to be able to sit on the floor.

00:22:06.617 –> 00:22:10.537
And what, what they really mean is sit on the floor with me, spread out all of our stuff.

00:22:10.847 –> 00:22:15.187
Well, that’s a very different size than, you know, probably like the seven by seven that these rooms are.

00:22:15.321 –> 00:22:16.691
you know, again, it depends.

00:22:16.691 –> 00:22:17.871
It depends on the number of students.

00:22:17.871 –> 00:22:18.951
It depends on the need.

00:22:19.296 –> 00:22:27.092
but the other part we haven’t really touched on in regards to The Joy School is that, you said it last week when you said the– our first building was about remediation.

00:22:27.472 –> 00:22:37.812
Um, but the culture here is a huge part of it, and I think, you know, for us designing, um, it needs to be about the culture and the community if we possibly can and if we know.

00:22:37.812 –> 00:22:42.302
That’s what I mean by doing independent schools allows me to do something very special in that way.

00:22:42.570 –> 00:22:54.060
because very quickly, um, you know, I’m trying to figure out what every possible child with a learning diff- difference might need in a room and a space or in a group of spaces, and they’re like, “No, no, no, we got the remediation part.

00:22:54.160 –> 00:22:58.630
That’s the easy part.” Which is like, as a parent of a, of a kid with dyslexia, I was like: Wait, what?

00:22:58.824 –> 00:23:19.283
and then they said, “No, it’s about getting all the other experiences.” And, um, somehow they make this school y- the students may only be here three years, could– they could be here two years but
they make this part of this community, and they talk about, in terms of designing, about how things feel in such a way to, like, they wanna touch the doorknob before we put it in the building, you know?

00:23:19.603 –> 00:23:23.530
To, you know, how you make people feel included and part of something.

00:23:23.550 –> 00:23:30.130
And, um, you know, it’s, it’s Friday, and I’ve never been invited, I have to tell you, but, um, it’s dance party day.

00:23:30.170 –> 00:23:33.120
And so they literally come in the school and they have

00:23:33.120 –> 00:23:33.290
Shara Bumgarner: dance party.

00:23:33.290 –> 00:23:34.060
Tonight is middle school dance.

00:23:34.120 –> 00:23:36.070
You can stay till 10 o’clock with me.

00:23:36.200 –> 00:23:39.280
Janann Pittman: And, you know, this is our only project that has a disco ball.

00:23:39.350 –> 00:23:40.720
And it’s– There’s two disco balls.

00:23:40.730 –> 00:23:40.820
We

00:23:40.820 –> 00:23:41.700
Shara Bumgarner: have two disco balls.

00:23:41.700 –> 00:23:53.140
Janann Pittman: And so, you know, this is a large part of kind of who they are that, you know, when we asked about, you know, supplies
that a student has to bring in, you know, trying to understand the school more, they said, “Oh, no, no, no, we don’t worry about that.

00:23:53.400 –> 00:23:55.880
We supply what they need ’cause every child needs something different.

00:23:56.210 –> 00:24:02.980
But we tell them they have to get all these costumes.” And they start talking about, the adults in the room, start talking about their costume con- closets.

00:24:02.980 –> 00:24:08.980
And I’m always just like, “Whoa, what?” And I show up in black ’cause I’m an architect and this is all part of my wardrobe.

00:24:09.220 –> 00:24:11.770
And it’s like, it’s like pirate day.

00:24:11.820 –> 00:24:16.890
And, you know, actually, I don’t think I’ve been here pirate day except for once because it’s such a busy day here.

00:24:17.190 –> 00:24:19.450
Um, because it’s STEM-based education that’s going on.

00:24:19.450 –> 00:24:23.620
It’s not because it’s, you know, they’re– it’s a play date or something like that.

00:24:23.620 –> 00:24:27.680
It’s just such an amazing place, and the kids are so happy here.

00:24:27.810 –> 00:24:29.540
They’re just so, so, so happy.

00:24:29.540 –> 00:24:37.900
So that designing for community and creating opportunities, um, because they really have had to focus on the classroom spaces and the essential spaces.

00:24:37.900 –> 00:24:42.200
For the longest time, their lobby had to serve as their only community space.

00:24:42.210 –> 00:24:50.814
So having the opportunity to provide these other options and larger spaces so they could try out different ways of teaching, I mean, that’s what makes this really so very different.

00:24:51.080 –> 00:25:01.490
Dr. Brian McCraw: And you guys have truly embraced the radically student-centered approach, even though you might not have used that, that phrase, that’s exactly what you guys have done to, to meet the various needs of every learner on that campus.

00:25:01.490 –> 00:25:02.790
So I think that’s wonderful.

00:25:02.840 –> 00:25:03.773
I think that’s fantastic.

00:25:08.929 –> 00:25:13.709
You know, when we work with schools at K12, it’s not just about furniture or design, it’s about impact.

00:25:13.949 –> 00:25:18.119
Our radically student-centered approach puts students at the center of every decision.

00:25:18.429 –> 00:25:26.509
From that first conversation to the final walkthrough, we’re focused on creating spaces that actually work for the kids, the teachers, and the community.

00:25:26.789 –> 00:25:30.559
So if you’re looking to do more than just check a box on your next project, let’s talk.

00:25:30.809 –> 00:25:40.779
Visit k12.com, that’s K-A-Y-T-W-E-L-V-E.com, and see how we’re helping schools transform learning one student at a time.

00:25:41.119 –> 00:25:45.159
Because at K12, it’s not just about projects and furniture, it’s about purpose

00:25:50.652 –> 00:25:52.082
Dr. Brian McCraw: Matt, you wanna add to that?

00:25:52.696 –> 00:25:52.996
Matt Rogers: Yeah.

00:25:52.996 –> 00:25:54.496
Well, I love the disco ball.

00:25:54.526 –> 00:26:06.016
Um, like that, that actually kind of leads into my next question, lot of things that I hear is, and I can hear it already from you all is, um, even though you’re looking at trying to like get them to the next spot, like what, what’s the next step?

00:26:06.366 –> 00:26:12.376
You guys are really focused on making the, the best experience possible for when those kids are there, um, which I absolutely love.

00:26:12.846 –> 00:26:35.519
Um, so kind of going off of that, and the answer could be deeper into the disco ball, but I really want to ask you all is like what’s the one thing from both of your perspectives, um, Janan from the design side and then, um, Char
from the day-to-day, like what’s one thing that any school could take from what you all are doing and implement it right away, um, in their schools to, to kind of, um, look at it differently, from what you guys see on the day-to-day?

00:26:36.466 –> 00:26:38.556
Janann Pittman: I mean, I, you know, we always hear about testing.

00:26:38.586 –> 00:26:45.566
We always hear about student achievement as in numbers and, um, it, it’s kind of heartbreaking, honestly.

00:26:45.616 –> 00:26:50.656
I mean, you come here and there’s just– Everybody’s super excited.

00:26:50.676 –> 00:26:52.986
They’re excited about what they’re doing, they’re excited about what I’m doing.

00:26:52.986 –> 00:26:58.418
They’re excited about, the trapezoidal shapes in the window frame and what color it is, and could we have more of those?

00:26:58.418 –> 00:27:01.268
And, you know, I mean, they’re just, it, this, this is just the other day.

00:27:01.308 –> 00:27:04.188
I mean, there’s just such an enthusiasm and a passion for things.

00:27:04.401 –> 00:27:14.631
and then you tour a school where everybody, you know, potentially is sitting in rows in classroom after classroom and, and it’s, they may be discussing a book that I really liked when I read it, and there’s no joy.

00:27:15.201 –> 00:27:16.141
So I mean,

00:27:16.211 –> 00:27:16.461
Matt Rogers: Hmm.

00:27:16.734 –> 00:27:19.174
Janann Pittman: I mean, that what they bring to this, it’s amazing.

00:27:19.324 –> 00:27:27.684
The staff and the teachers and the, honestly, the administrators’ respect for the teachers, um, and things that they do to make their lives easier.

00:27:28.064 –> 00:27:33.014
I mean, it’s not an easy job and, and they, they are just so all in.

00:27:33.274 –> 00:27:34.014
It’s an amazing group

00:27:34.550 –> 00:27:38.000
Dr. Brian McCraw: I think what you just said too, Jeanette, is that you mentioned the word joy.

00:27:38.280 –> 00:27:41.290
You know, I was a classically trained teacher and coach.

00:27:41.290 –> 00:27:45.210
I was a high school principal and spent a couple years as a superintendent, God help me.

00:27:45.510 –> 00:27:50.450
But the, the word joy was rarely associated with what happens in public schools.

00:27:51.110 –> 00:27:54.170
It’s something that’s forced or something you have to do.

00:27:54.420 –> 00:28:06.080
And all we talked about testing after testing after testing, and I remember as a, uh, as a principal, as my first couple years as a principal back in the early 2000s, I remember questioning that.

00:28:06.530 –> 00:28:12.600
You know, why is it all the kids are taking the same exact test at the same time and measured against other kids?

00:28:12.910 –> 00:28:21.100
And then especially in a state that is as large and as diverse as Texas, it’s amazing that we’re still doing these things.

00:28:21.100 –> 00:28:28.730
And I, I use the word, and I’ve kind of got in a little trouble, I use the word archaic when it came to standardized testing, and we’re still doing it the same way.

00:28:29.170 –> 00:28:37.900
And if you look at test scores throughout our state and public education, scores are essentially the same as they always have been with every subpopulation and subgroup.

00:28:38.530 –> 00:28:50.580
And so if you start bringing the word joy into what we’re doing, the joy of learning and preparing these kids, not only to advance to the next grade, but to advance in life, and joy is something that’s been left out of it.

00:28:50.600 –> 00:28:52.870
I’m, I’m excited just hearing about what you’re doing.

00:28:52.870 –> 00:29:01.740
I can’t wait to come visit the school and really see what’s happening and, and how we can really integrate what you guys do at other schools.

00:29:01.770 –> 00:29:10.770
Because if we even just get a tenth of what you guys are doing at your school and put that in a public school, you’re gonna see a massive shift and, and transformation.

00:29:10.770 –> 00:29:11.080
So

00:29:11.698 –> 00:29:14.338
Janann Pittman: you know, I’m, I’m a product of public schools, and-

00:29:14.678 –> 00:29:15.038
Shara Bumgarner: So am I

00:29:15.118 –> 00:29:26.205
… Janann Pittman: my middle school, you know, I, I hate when I hear people say, um, non-educators say, “Well, it’s just middle school. They just have to get through it.” And it just, it, it breaks my heart because I loved middle school.

00:29:26.205 –> 00:29:28.845
It was one of my favorite times in education, period.

00:29:28.875 –> 00:29:39.265
And I, I liked my time at Rice, but I still– It was a middle school, and, um, it was public, and it was one of the first Blue Ribbon schools at, it’s on Long Island, uh, Shoreham-Wading, Shoreham-Wading River.

00:29:39.275 –> 00:29:40.445
Gonna shout out to them.

00:29:40.795 –> 00:29:44.625
Um, but we had, like, amazing community service program, an arts program.

00:29:44.945 –> 00:29:47.265
I think most of the teachers had gone to Woodstock.

00:29:47.335 –> 00:29:50.005
I mean, I learned so much, and I had so much fun.

00:29:50.025 –> 00:29:52.415
We had a farm with a greenhouse, goats.

00:29:52.415 –> 00:29:55.135
We milked the goats and then make a goat’s milk ice, ice cream.

00:29:55.135 –> 00:29:56.995
And so, I mean, why can’t we have fun?

00:29:56.995 –> 00:29:58.075
I had a blast.

00:29:58.375 –> 00:30:03.695
And yet, you know, I, I did, I did just as well on my algebra regents as probably the next person.

00:30:03.695 –> 00:30:10.735
But, you know, the point being that, you know, it doesn’t mean that you can’t have it, and it doesn’t mean that it’s not happening already in public schools.

00:30:11.095 –> 00:30:12.135
It’s just not happening enough.

00:30:12.483 –> 00:30:13.053
Dr. Brian McCraw: Yeah, that’s right.

00:30:13.133 –> 00:30:13.813
I agree with you.

00:30:13.813 –> 00:30:20.513
I had a great experience, and my mo- my mom was a former teacher and principal and superintendent, twice retired superintendent.

00:30:20.513 –> 00:30:23.233
She actually went back and did it again after she retired.

00:30:23.463 –> 00:30:25.883
So shout out to Jo Lynn McCraw in Beaumont, Texas.

00:30:25.893 –> 00:30:27.053
But, um,

00:30:27.583 –> 00:30:28.193
Shara Bumgarner: Oh, you’re a Texan

00:30:28.323 –> 00:30:30.403
Dr. Brian McCraw: yeah, I’m from, I’m, I’m from the Beaumont area.

00:30:30.403 –> 00:30:31.203
Yeah, that’s right

00:30:31.253 –> 00:30:36.563
So, um, anyway, I spent a lot of time in Houston as well, but that’s one of the things too.

00:30:36.563 –> 00:30:44.833
You talk about the influence that I, that I had on myself from my educators growing up with– I could tell you every teacher I had from first grade all the way through 12th grade.

00:30:44.990 –> 00:30:49.000
I could tell you which ones were awesome, which one, ones were not as good.

00:30:49.300 –> 00:30:56.720
But for the most part, the teachers that I had and experience I had growing up in the public education system here in Southeast Texas was wonderful.

00:30:57.140 –> 00:30:57.900
It was wonderful.

00:30:58.320 –> 00:31:05.810
And I don’t remember much of a, of a focus on standardized testing, but I do remember a focus on getting prepared for that next level.

00:31:05.810 –> 00:31:09.490
And in this case, all of us were prepared to go to college or university.

00:31:09.950 –> 00:31:10.800
That’s, that’s it.

00:31:10.830 –> 00:31:11.890
That was the focus.

00:31:12.230 –> 00:31:14.170
That’s all they taught us, and that’s what you did.

00:31:14.540 –> 00:31:16.690
And we heard it at home, we heard it at school.

00:31:17.000 –> 00:31:30.200
But I think, uh, going back to, I know this is sh- really stretching it, but going back to design and functionality of the actual school building itself, our school didn’t look any different from a prison.

00:31:30.770 –> 00:31:37.270
You know, it was just a, just a box, compartmentalized, okay, desk in a row, okay?

00:31:37.420 –> 00:31:42.960
And if you have figured out for me just in a little bit, I was pretty wiry and, and, you know, my ADHD was undiagnosed.

00:31:43.250 –> 00:31:51.230
And, uh, they made us sit in these desks that had a bar on the side of the combo desk, and that was like a little mini jail cell for me.

00:31:51.700 –> 00:31:58.311
And so you can imagine what I did, I like to talk a lot and cut up and have a good time, and I spent a lot of time in the principal’s office.

00:31:58.341 –> 00:32:01.191
And back then, either you were suspended or they put the board on you.

00:32:01.621 –> 00:32:04.611
And so I got the board on me many, many times.

00:32:04.731 –> 00:32:08.416
I think I averaged six to 12 per year from first grade all the way through high school.

00:32:08.416 –> 00:32:10.681
And it, it typed me up for about a month or so.

00:32:11.121 –> 00:32:27.421
But, um, anyway, I just started thinking about design and function of the building itself, and I know, uh, Janine, you kinda already answered this, but what, what do you really look at when it comes to designing the sp- specific purpose?

00:32:27.441 –> 00:32:42.261
You can’t use the term it depends, but what is it that, what is it that you really focus on when it comes to actual design when it–
obviously we wanna build these brand-new beautiful buildings that cost millions of dollars, and we wanna improve educational outcomes.

00:32:42.261 –> 00:32:45.861
We just don’t wanna replace the building, even though some districts, that’s exactly what they’re doing.

00:32:46.101 –> 00:32:48.191
They’re just replacing an old building.

00:32:48.231 –> 00:32:55.911
So what, what is it that you guys consider, I guess, the number one thing when it comes to how you’re going to design a new learning space?

00:32:57.225 –> 00:32:58.335
Janann Pittman: Oh, the number one thing.

00:32:58.435 –> 00:32:59.055
So that’s hard.

00:32:59.315 –> 00:32:59.335
Yeah.

00:32:59.345 –> 00:33:00.795
Uh, because there’s so many things.

00:33:00.835 –> 00:33:04.735
Um, I would say that, you know, a wonderful teacher can teach in a shoebox, right?

00:33:04.735 –> 00:33:05.835
It, it, it doesn’t matter.

00:33:05.835 –> 00:33:11.809
But, um, but I think that, you know, you know, often a child’s home– second home is, is a school.

00:33:12.306 –> 00:33:14.806
if we can’t make it a place that you wanna spend time…

00:33:14.806 –> 00:33:16.806
I mean, everybody remembers their school.

00:33:17.106 –> 00:33:20.176
Um, do you remember your first office, that first cubicle?

00:33:20.236 –> 00:33:20.706
You know- No.

00:33:20.706 –> 00:33:20.916
No.

00:33:20.916 –> 00:33:23.076
I mean, that’s probably, you know, that’s a stretch, right?

00:33:23.299 –> 00:33:25.339
so you know, it used to be– Things have changed.

00:33:25.389 –> 00:33:27.689
We– It used to be that we had to argue to get more windows.

00:33:27.709 –> 00:33:30.829
It used to be we had to argue to get better lighting.

00:33:30.869 –> 00:33:33.539
Um, these studies, you know, for acoustics weren’t out yet.

00:33:33.569 –> 00:33:37.039
I mean, we don’t do a building now without an acoustical consultant, you know?

00:33:37.299 –> 00:33:41.755
And, Things– So much has changed, and it’s not just that it’s more pleasant to be in.

00:33:42.055 –> 00:33:50.515
Um, but I think this idea that there’s choice too, choice for teachers, choice for students in, you know, what they sit on and, you know, maybe there’s more than one lighting setting even.

00:33:50.515 –> 00:33:51.425
Hopefully there is.

00:33:51.445 –> 00:33:59.443
Um, but having that, uh, those options m-makes it possible, to really teach in a way that is reflective of what the goals are.

00:33:59.443 –> 00:34:09.250
So if we can reflect the pedagogy in, you know, how they teach in a physical form, and then express the community, because it’s the community that you tend to remember, right?

00:34:09.280 –> 00:34:10.440
I mean, it’s that feeling

00:34:11.597 –> 00:34:11.617
Dr. Brian McCraw: love that

00:34:11.725 –> 00:34:14.975
Janann Pittman: you know, for feeling is, is a large part of it, I would say.

00:34:15.133 –> 00:34:19.143
Dr. Brian McCraw: I think what you said really stands out that this is their child’s second home.

00:34:20.073 –> 00:34:26.463
That’s, that’s something that I think more people need to hear, and I think that’s, that’s a very, very profound thing.

00:34:26.543 –> 00:34:27.033
Uh, Matt?

00:34:27.495 –> 00:34:40.398
Matt Rogers: yeah, well, um, as we kind of, um, kind of wrap back, um, I want to just, talk about, cause we kind of talked about it a little bit, um, was, there’s surviving or thriving, and I, I noticed this on the website when I was checking it out earlier.

00:34:40.588 –> 00:34:44.428
You guys have that phrase as one of your, your, um, visions there.

00:34:44.428 –> 00:34:47.728
So I want to kind of hear, um, a little bit about that, Shara.

00:34:47.758 –> 00:34:56.548
Like what is, what does surviving versus thriving look like today and, and kind of what are you guys looking at in the future, um, for, for students as well as you’re thinking in the future?

00:34:57.042 –> 00:35:06.720
Shara Bumgarner: not all, but a hefty majority of kiddos who come to the Joy School, School has not been a joyful place.

00:35:07.170 –> 00:35:13.940
Um, whether it’s because, you know, they were late in learning to read or they were struggling in some way or they were struggling to make friends.

00:35:14.330 –> 00:35:28.720
Um, for so many of our new kids, school was seven hours of where their differences or their challenges were highlighted, focused on, you know, et cetera.

00:35:28.720 –> 00:35:42.900
And then they would come home and those same kids would have to do tutoring or go to therapy or, you know, take three hours to do homework and the whole family is held hostage because the one kid needs help with homework.

00:35:43.347 –> 00:35:46.547
and those kids are surviving.

00:35:46.557 –> 00:35:48.497
They’re getting through school, right?

00:35:48.857 –> 00:35:51.847
Um, sometimes they even have def- decent grades.

00:35:52.297 –> 00:36:00.387
But it takes such a toll when every waking hour of their day is focused on what is difficult for them.

00:36:01.187 –> 00:36:14.407
That means they don’t get to, you know, really shine in soccer or join a, you know, a theater group or do play, you know, just play outside or pl- you know, pl- work with their hands.

00:36:14.667 –> 00:36:24.917
You know, so many of our kids have those talents where, you know, academics may not be their strength, but they have all these other talents that they just don’t have time to explore.

00:36:25.297 –> 00:36:31.067
And, you know, the reality is we all choose careers based on our strengths, not what we do poorly at.

00:36:31.087 –> 00:36:37.427
And so we spend all this time trying to fix whatever it is a child is not good at.

00:36:37.437 –> 00:36:42.027
Like, that’s not helping them figure out who they are and what their talents are.

00:36:42.431 –> 00:36:49.281
The name of our school is based on, um, it’s really based on a story from our founding parent.

00:36:49.301 –> 00:36:57.712
But, you know, when her kiddo thought she was having fun or playing games, she was able to grasp, concepts more easily.

00:36:57.952 –> 00:37:02.572
As soon as she thought it was work, she stre- got stressed out and shut down, you know?

00:37:02.998 –> 00:37:12.378
and so one of the things we talk about intention- intentionality-wise is we know from brain research that an anxious brain can’t learn.

00:37:12.448 –> 00:37:16.748
It wouldn’t matter how talented our teachers are, what programs we have in place.

00:37:17.068 –> 00:37:23.518
If a kiddo’s in fight or flight mode for whatever reason, whether it’s academic reasons or not, we’re not going to get anywhere.

00:37:23.568 –> 00:37:35.908
And so in designing our space, we were very, very intentional about how we wanted it to feel, and not just how we wanted it to feel for kids, but also parents.

00:37:36.208 –> 00:37:41.518
You know, the reality is nobody gets on the Joy School waiting list when they take their kid home for the first time.

00:37:41.778 –> 00:37:43.348
You know, nobody wants to be here.

00:37:43.899 –> 00:37:51.761
and so we wanted, when parents came to visit or tour the school, we wanted them to feel embraced.

00:37:51.811 –> 00:38:04.302
We wanted them to feel welcome and understood and not judged, and a place where they could, truly share everything so that we could help them in as many ways as possible.

00:38:04.312 –> 00:38:05.682
We wanted them to relax.

00:38:06.052 –> 00:38:07.862
Um, we wanted the same thing for kids.

00:38:07.872 –> 00:38:12.072
So how we, um, the color palette we chose was intentional.

00:38:12.092 –> 00:38:14.152
The furniture we ch- chose was intentional.

00:38:14.608 –> 00:38:17.418
you know, again, we also took that to the other adults in our building.

00:38:17.418 –> 00:38:26.868
We wanted teachers to feel safe and supported, and h- where we placed offices versus classrooms was intentional.

00:38:27.008 –> 00:38:33.778
Um, we didn’t want an admin hallway that was closed doors and, you know, nobody gets in without permission.

00:38:34.499 –> 00:38:38.259
our dean’s office is closest to the playground.

00:38:38.569 –> 00:38:42.912
So um, they can hear what’s going on even if they don’t want to hear what’s going on, right?

00:38:43.142 –> 00:38:45.042
Or if something’s happening, they can be at the ready.

00:38:45.213 –> 00:38:48.642
the principal’s o- the dean’s office is, welcoming to kids.

00:38:48.642 –> 00:38:50.892
It’s not a place where you go for a paddling.

00:38:51.224 –> 00:38:56.874
it’s not that they don’t ever have disciplinary issues to deal with, but it’s also a place to be celebrated.

00:38:56.874 –> 00:39:10.954
It’s a place to go get support in handling a social conflict or a problem with a friend or a problem with a teacher, or sometimes we even lia- have to be a liaison between kids and parents and, you know, helping them speak the same language.

00:39:10.954 –> 00:39:14.720
So, you know, all of those things were so intentional.

00:39:15.205 –> 00:39:23.145
Jananne and I, um, Jananne laughs at me because I could probably do an entire podcast on how intentional we were around bathrooms.

00:39:23.445 –> 00:39:23.705
Janann Pittman: She could.

00:39:23.715 –> 00:39:24.065
Shara Bumgarner: Um,

00:39:24.877 –> 00:39:24.887
Matt Rogers: Hmm.

00:39:25.245 –> 00:39:26.435
Shara Bumgarner: which is kind of crazy.

00:39:26.855 –> 00:39:36.975
Um, but from adult restrooms being a place that they could actually relax for two minutes and not feeling like they were just in an institutional restroom, right?

00:39:37.404 –> 00:39:44.654
and down to kids and, you know, we, we chose not to have auto flush toilets because we didn’t want that to make somebody anxious.

00:39:45.144 –> 00:39:53.474
you know, we didn’t want to have, you know, faucets where you have to like push the button and switch hands, you know, because of our kiddos who had coordination issues.

00:39:53.851 –> 00:39:55.041
you know, door handles.

00:39:55.041 –> 00:39:59.591
I never– If you had asked me 20 years ago if I cared about door handles, I would’ve said no.

00:39:59.881 –> 00:40:04.531
And the first three they brought me and I touched them, I was like, “Oh my gosh, your finger gets caught.” You know?

00:40:04.821 –> 00:40:10.041
And like, I was thinking in terms of little kid fingers and the ease of use for that.

00:40:10.051 –> 00:40:19.952
So, in answering the question like what other schools could take away, um, I really, like Jananne said, I think thinking about how the building feels.

00:40:20.342 –> 00:40:30.632
People tell us c- over and over and over again, like you can just feel it when you walk in that this is, that the Joy name matches the environment.

00:40:31.062 –> 00:40:35.572
I would say that, and then also intentionality around everything.

00:40:35.652 –> 00:40:54.652
Around the placement of certain spaces, around forced, um, travel patterns so that people aren’t isolated, that they’re, you know, people have a reason to, um, go
to the same part in the building so that people do interact, um, rather than being able to take care of all of their needs in a one single corner of the building.

00:40:55.063 –> 00:40:56.663
that’s what I would add to that.

00:40:57.150 –> 00:41:08.440
Matt Rogers: o- one of the biggest– And the reason why I ask this, and this is so helpful for you to kinda go through, ’cause like
you mentioned, you’ve had the beauty of, I think you said twice, going through this process of being able to kinda lead from this.

00:41:08.440 –> 00:41:16.320
But there’s a lot of people in a lot of sense, Brian, I don’t know about you, but if, uh, there’s a lot of superintendents and heads of schools that never even get a chance to kinda go through this.

00:41:16.330 –> 00:41:21.360
So sharing these perspectives are really huge, um, to share with our audience, um, for those ones that are.

00:41:21.360 –> 00:41:31.590
So Janan, I’d love to ask you, is there anything from your perspective that any words of encouragement or, um, you know, things that you would leave our audience with if they are kinda going through something like this for the first time?

00:41:31.810 –> 00:41:38.070
Things to be thinking about, things that may be some wins from, uh, the Joy School project that you would have, uh, our audience take with them

00:41:38.744 –> 00:41:47.664
Janann Pittman: I would, I would say sometimes, you know, we have very, um, few meetings, right, where with a client and they, or they only let us in a little bit, you know?

00:41:47.834 –> 00:41:55.820
Um, and I think by doing the master plan first and by being, having them be so open, um, with us, we were able to learn so much more about them.

00:41:56.270 –> 00:42:03.515
I think that’s true of our other clients as well, the ones that can really– and most of them do, it’s awesome, really let us in and get to know them, flaws and all.

00:42:03.525 –> 00:42:08.805
It’s, it’s, it’s the best because we really, we really get them a whole lot more.

00:42:09.025 –> 00:42:14.575
So when I’ve, I’ve learned that when, when Shara says, “You know, we need, we need the toilet stalls to be a little bit more private.”

00:42:14.906 –> 00:42:15.646
okay, great.

00:42:15.736 –> 00:42:16.176
Got that.

00:42:16.186 –> 00:42:18.036
We’ll put a continuous hinge on that door.

00:42:18.361 –> 00:42:20.891
and then that comes up again and I realize, oh, you know what?

00:42:20.891 –> 00:42:23.031
I, I, I probably need to dig a little bit more.

00:42:23.631 –> 00:42:31.421
And, and we do this a lot when we’re work- for the team working on The Joy School, is we just knee-jerk reaction, is this our standard whatever, or do we need to question it?

00:42:31.441 –> 00:42:46.611
And especially here, we need to question it, but it makes us more, much more aware, I think, in our other projects honestly, too, where we, where we
have to say, “When you say a little bit more privacy, you know, are you thinking you want a door and for around a toilet with walls and,” you know.

00:42:47.101 –> 00:42:49.491
Yeah, that’s exactly what we– That would be really good.

00:42:49.521 –> 00:43:01.444
You know, so but it’s if you don’t ask, if you don’t, um, kinda drill down, and, and they are just so open about things that it really helps us to, you know… And it, they give us the time to follow up and to ask the questions.

00:43:01.844 –> 00:43:15.724
Um, so I think, you know, for them to, to communicate, you know, their needs or, uh, or the issues even, you know, it allows us to be intentional, and then it reflects their very, very intentionality in what they do.

00:43:16.534 –> 00:43:22.569
Shara Bumgarner: Um, I would also add that, you know, a lot of schools, you know, it’s work by committee, right?

00:43:22.569 –> 00:43:37.222
So you might have a, a building committee and, um, we certainly had a building committee at the board level, but Getting input from as many people as possible, not for consensus building, but for perspective taking.

00:43:37.302 –> 00:43:48.412
Like really understanding what someone means, like she’s saying, but also, um, for a shared space, making sure that we’re getting a handle on everybody’s needs.

00:43:48.412 –> 00:43:58.264
What does this mean for the art teacher versus the principals versus, you know, the PE teacher or, um, the s- the person who’s planning graduation as an event?

00:43:58.304 –> 00:44:08.379
So, um, one of the spaces Janine helped us design is our, um… It’s our gathering hall, and so it is used for, eating lunch for l- cafeteria tables.

00:44:08.399 –> 00:44:10.039
It’s also used for indoor PE.

00:44:10.289 –> 00:44:16.438
It is also where we have performances for kiddos, graduation, um, our house rallies.

00:44:16.438 –> 00:44:21.598
Our school has a house system where the entire community is divided into four different houses.

00:44:22.168 –> 00:44:24.248
all kinds of things happen in this space.

00:44:24.248 –> 00:44:25.678
Tonight it’s the middle school dance.

00:44:26.088 –> 00:44:42.058
Um, so getting input from multiple people, not just me, because, you know, I might think about certain things but not think about how that would
affect someone else or how it’s going to affect, you know, the conference room which is down the hall and, you know, acoustically what does that mean?

00:44:42.058 –> 00:44:54.268
So, allowing more people to be part of the process, not to the point where it bogs down the system, but like before you start designing, really giving everybody an opportunity to share things.

00:44:54.332 –> 00:45:06.302
and that’s what Janine and her team were so phenomenal at, was taking all of these different ideas and perspectives and finding common ground and building in flexibility wherever we could.

00:45:06.822 –> 00:45:13.052
Um, ’cause again, as a small school, we need as much flexibility as we could possibly have because we’re so limited in what our options are.

00:45:14.206 –> 00:45:14.906
Dr. Brian McCraw: Yeah, that’s fantastic.

00:45:14.976 –> 00:45:16.236
I have a follow-up question on that.

00:45:16.236 –> 00:45:18.826
Totally off, off everything.

00:45:19.152 –> 00:45:25.002
the, the voucher system that’s starting up this fall, are you guys, um, participating in that?

00:45:25.022 –> 00:45:26.442
How’s that, how’s that affecting you?

00:45:26.442 –> 00:45:33.912
I have my own opinions about it as an educator as well, but I wanted to see where you guys are on that as a, uh, as a private institution

00:45:35.338 –> 00:45:38.248
Shara Bumgarner: So we are not participating in the voucher system.

00:45:38.560 –> 00:45:39.280
Dr. Brian McCraw: I didn’t think you were

00:45:40.245 –> 00:46:03.255
Shara Bumgarner: I believe it is the rights– it is the right decision for us, primarily because what makes us able to do what we do is the
ability to do whatever it takes, to do whatever we think is right for this kiddo or this family without any kind of regulation from the state.

00:46:03.685 –> 00:46:08.475
Um, obviously we have our accrediting organization, which has very, very high standards.

00:46:08.824 –> 00:46:12.357
but, the idea of, um, even testing, you know.

00:46:12.357 –> 00:46:20.857
Of course, we do some standardized testing so that kids have, you know, records to follow them and that are meaningful to other schools.

00:46:20.877 –> 00:46:34.392
But, anything that would tie our hands in having to do something for a student or not being able to do something for a student or family, um, down to admissions policies and dismissal policies.

00:46:34.651 –> 00:46:42.581
you know, part of having a safe, supportive environment means occasionally we have to let somebody go because w- we’re not the right place.

00:46:42.581 –> 00:46:43.641
We can’t support them enough.

00:46:43.641 –> 00:46:49.641
And so if the state interfered with that, it would interfere with our ability to serve our kiddos.

00:46:50.096 –> 00:46:55.756
and there are so many variables that have not– so many kinks that have not been worked out.

00:46:56.077 –> 00:46:59.227
also we have a really robust financial aid program.

00:46:59.297 –> 00:47:06.627
And so, you know, for our 150-ish families, we give out more than a million dollars every year.

00:47:07.237 –> 00:47:14.547
And so I don’t feel like our families actually need the vouchers to be able to access, access The Joy School.

00:47:14.997 –> 00:47:17.627
Um, so I don’t feel like they’re losing out.

00:47:18.198 –> 00:47:20.828
but yeah, it’s complicated, but no, we’re not participating this year.

00:47:20.922 –> 00:47:21.962
Dr. Brian McCraw: I totally, I totally get it.

00:47:22.172 –> 00:47:22.372
Cool.

00:47:22.392 –> 00:47:23.232
Thank you so much.

00:47:23.272 –> 00:47:23.932
Uh, Matt

00:47:24.705 –> 00:47:25.875
Matt Rogers: Well, I’ll take us home then.

00:47:25.895 –> 00:47:30.825
Um, for the listeners, uh, betterlearningpodcast.com is where you can find us.

00:47:31.095 –> 00:47:36.355
Um, we’re gonna put, uh, things in the, uh, comments here, um, to find more about the Joy School.

00:47:36.355 –> 00:47:44.245
I guess, Shara, real quick, um, 30 seconds, if, if anybody has more interest on the Joy School, can you tell them where they can find you all at and where to find more information?

00:47:44.699 –> 00:47:45.059
Shara Bumgarner: Yes.

00:47:45.069 –> 00:47:48.959
Best place is our website, www.thejoyschool.org.

00:47:49.469 –> 00:48:03.910
Um, but I would be remiss in not, um, really doing a shout-out for Jackson Ryan because, I have to say we interviewed, um, five different firms before we chose Jackson Ryan when we were doing our design work.

00:48:04.320 –> 00:48:16.675
And again, what was so important to us was finding a team that really would be open to listening about how we were different, and that is what her team did so well.

00:48:16.685 –> 00:48:26.267
Even from the very first interview, the language they used, the language they, took from us and used back with us, that’s what made this possible.

00:48:26.297 –> 00:48:34.297
Because, you know, anybody who’s designed lots of schools, you know, you do, you have default ideas of what something means.

00:48:34.907 –> 00:48:40.747
And, um, finding Jenny Anne and listening to her speak, I knew immediately that they were our people.

00:48:40.987 –> 00:48:44.707
And- Thank you … that’s why we’ve invited them back for this next phase.

00:48:45.087 –> 00:48:45.437
Janann Pittman: Thank

00:48:45.437 –> 00:48:45.787
Shara Bumgarner: you.

00:48:46.215 –> 00:48:46.895
Matt Rogers: That’s amazing.

00:48:46.895 –> 00:48:52.495
And Janan, yeah, any- anywhere where guests can follow, uh, your work and some of the things that you guys are doing?

00:48:53.155 –> 00:48:57.015
Janann Pittman: Um, I would say also our website, it’s, jacksonryan.com.

00:48:57.230 –> 00:48:58.710
yeah, I guess that’s the best place to follow us.

00:48:58.710 –> 00:49:02.120
We’re also trying to increase our social media, but follow The Joy School social media.

00:49:02.120 –> 00:49:02.660
They’re fun.

00:49:03.000 –> 00:49:04.360
Shara Bumgarner: Our social media is fun.

00:49:04.900 –> 00:49:10.650
If you really wanna see kids thriving and just finding joy in school, then that’s where it is.

00:49:10.976 –> 00:49:15.056
Matt Rogers: We are going to put all the links in our, in our show notes here for guests to follow along.

00:49:15.386 –> 00:49:16.786
Uh, yeah, give them a follow.

00:49:16.946 –> 00:49:20.086
And like I said, betterlearningpodcast.com is where you can find more about us.

00:49:20.346 –> 00:49:23.596
Um, but yeah, to our guests, thank you so much for joining us.

00:49:23.746 –> 00:49:24.316
We’ll talk soon

00:49:29.069 –> 00:49:33.529
The Better Learning Podcast is produced by Matt Rogers and edited by Kelly Jones.

00:49:34.209 –> 00:49:43.579
The views and opinions shared on this podcast are those of the individuals speaking and do not necessarily represent the perspectives of their affiliated companies, organizations, or associations