Read Transcript:

00:00:07.354 –> 00:00:08.194
Mark Barga: Hello everybody.

00:00:08.254 –> 00:00:13.714
I am here with Anne Fullenkamp, the Senior Director of Creative Experiences at the Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh.

00:00:13.714 –> 00:00:14.764
Anne, it’s so great to see you.

00:00:14.764 –> 00:00:15.724
Thank you for joining me.

00:00:16.144 –> 00:00:16.714
Anne Fullenkamp: Absolutely.

00:00:16.714 –> 00:00:17.974
It’s good to see you too, Mark.

00:00:18.814 –> 00:00:22.174
Mark Barga: Anne, would you take a minute and give everybody your potted biography here?

00:00:22.174 –> 00:00:23.734
You’ve worn many hats.

00:00:23.734 –> 00:00:29.974
What has your journey been to this point in your career specifically as a, you know, design leader at the Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh?

00:00:30.844 –> 00:00:31.144
Anne Fullenkamp: Sure.

00:00:31.149 –> 00:00:32.734
Happy to tell my story.

00:00:32.734 –> 00:00:34.264
It’s very accidental.

00:00:34.472 –> 00:00:38.738
So I started my career, intending to be a practicing architect.

00:00:38.904 –> 00:00:46.764
I have a bachelor’s in fine Arts from the Maryland Institute College of Art with, uh, the intent of going on and studying architecture, which I did.

00:00:46.764 –> 00:00:52.252
I went on to get my master’s in architecture from Morgan State University in Baltimore.

00:00:52.642 –> 00:00:55.582
And then even before then, I was always working.

00:00:55.612 –> 00:00:58.582
I was working in interior design firms, architecture firms.

00:00:58.957 –> 00:01:03.697
Um, had a singular focus on, uh, the architecture world as my career.

00:01:03.969 –> 00:01:09.489
I was working really kind of getting, um, to be a, a specialist in, in institutional housing.

00:01:09.489 –> 00:01:12.069
We did a lot of senior housing apartments.

00:01:12.069 –> 00:01:20.633
I got to do a lot of fun market rate, adaptive reuse kind of things, um, when I started my career in Baltimore and then moved to Pittsburgh.

00:01:20.831 –> 00:01:22.781
Yeah, so it was a pretty traditional path.

00:01:23.291 –> 00:01:26.681
And then one day I was in my office in Pittsburgh.

00:01:26.711 –> 00:01:29.402
Um, this is around, 2006.

00:01:29.822 –> 00:01:33.482
Um, I had moved to Pittsburgh and, and was working at a wonderful firm.

00:01:33.617 –> 00:01:34.891
But something caught my eye.

00:01:34.891 –> 00:01:38.491
You know how you, you sit at a desk sometimes and look and see what jobs are out there?

00:01:38.911 –> 00:01:41.731
Um, and something popped up for an exhibit designer.

00:01:42.511 –> 00:01:49.321
I had no idea what that was, but I actually applied for it more as a design exercise for myself.

00:01:49.726 –> 00:01:57.046
I, um, you know, we all in this too in the situation where you, you go to work every day and you’re in your routine.

00:01:57.586 –> 00:02:01.546
Uh, and I was feeling a little disconnected from that creative side.

00:02:01.546 –> 00:02:04.726
And frankly, I, I wasn’t that far out of school.

00:02:04.726 –> 00:02:15.843
I, you know, I’ve been working for about six or seven years, so I, I didn’t necessarily feel like I had found my singular path yet, but in your work world, you start working.

00:02:15.843 –> 00:02:17.493
So that was happening really fast.

00:02:17.493 –> 00:02:19.443
So when I saw this, I was like, you know what?

00:02:19.773 –> 00:02:31.223
I’m going to apply because it required a portfolio and it forced me, or it made me kind of go back in and, and see if I could even get an interview, more of a lark.

00:02:31.523 –> 00:02:34.673
The job was blind, it was, uh, just for an exhibit designer.

00:02:34.673 –> 00:02:38.483
I didn’t know that I was applying for a job at the Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh.

00:02:38.753 –> 00:02:42.683
Frankly, if, if I had known that, I probably would not have applied for it.

00:02:42.683 –> 00:02:43.973
I thought I was, um.

00:02:44.708 –> 00:02:54.788
Applying for a museum because I thought also in my career as an architect, having some museum experience in my portfolio would open me up to other opportunities in architecture.

00:02:54.987 –> 00:02:58.377
The job was temp, uh, listed as a temporary position.

00:02:58.377 –> 00:03:01.587
So I was like, yeah, this could be a fun thing for a year and see if I could do it.

00:03:01.587 –> 00:03:06.451
So anyway, long story short, I got the interview and, it was actually interesting.

00:03:06.451 –> 00:03:11.041
I went in and it was for, uh, a temporary grant funded position.

00:03:11.551 –> 00:03:13.081
We had a really great discussion.

00:03:13.141 –> 00:03:15.691
I got really excited to hear what they were doing.

00:03:16.201 –> 00:03:32.851
And, um, I walked back to my office in Pittsburgh and by the time I got there, they had called me back and said if, and asked if I could come back in the next day because one of their exhibit designers had resigned and there was another position available.

00:03:33.161 –> 00:03:41.280
We joke now that, literally the former designer who I ended up replacing, he was waiting till they were finished my interview to come in and resign.

00:03:41.430 –> 00:03:42.570
So it was that quick.

00:03:42.781 –> 00:03:49.780
I came back the next day and we talked about a different position and in the end, that’s the position I took.

00:03:49.960 –> 00:03:57.670
It was also a temporary position, but it was to finish designing an exhibit that was already underway.

00:03:57.670 –> 00:04:13.168
It was, had been three years of development and they really needed someone with, actually my background was better suited to do project management, get the design drawings into construction drawings and, and, you know, get the thing built.

00:04:13.168 –> 00:04:16.048
And for me that was much less scary.

00:04:16.222 –> 00:04:22.642
The other position to design exhibits, from scratch, that was actually pretty scary and intimidating to me.

00:04:22.882 –> 00:04:27.952
So when I had the choice, I was like, oh yeah, you know, I can do that.

00:04:27.952 –> 00:04:34.086
I can take these, get these into construction drawings and do the project management, get it to the end.

00:04:34.086 –> 00:04:38.783
So, that position actually was offered as a nine month position, which was shorter than the other one.

00:04:39.023 –> 00:04:42.323
But again, for me at the time, that’s exactly what I wanted.

00:04:42.533 –> 00:04:45.413
It was kind of a break, almost like a sabbatical.

00:04:45.683 –> 00:04:46.763
I accepted that job.

00:04:46.917 –> 00:04:50.637
In the end, and I often say this, I drank the Kool-Aid.

00:04:50.722 –> 00:04:55.882
I ended up, I came into an experience that I had no context for.

00:04:55.882 –> 00:05:00.081
I’d never, I didn’t even know that museums had exhibit designers.

00:05:00.081 –> 00:05:02.391
I didn’t know this was a career path.

00:05:02.751 –> 00:05:11.421
Um, I was immediately embraced by these wonderful people who were singularly focused on, on creating experiences for children.

00:05:11.481 –> 00:05:14.301
Um, really an eclectic group, super talented.

00:05:14.811 –> 00:05:29.778
Um, I happened to find, uh, the stars aligned in, in finding this role at the Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh because, it was really unique in that they were running a full design team within the Children’s museum.

00:05:30.378 –> 00:05:31.758
It’s still very unique.

00:05:32.058 –> 00:05:37.368
Our executive director was a designer, our deputy director was a landscape architect.

00:05:37.728 –> 00:05:48.138
So they came in and they set up this design world ‘Because they really valued design as a way to creating meaningful experiences and respecting children.

00:05:48.138 –> 00:05:57.841
And the Children’s Museum at the time had just reopened in 2004, was an architectural gem, really had won AIA awards.

00:05:57.841 –> 00:06:03.541
It was one of the first LEED certified, so design is part of the DNA at the Children’s Museum.

00:06:03.541 –> 00:06:07.921
So I really found a home that felt very comfortable, but it was completely accidental.

00:06:08.337 –> 00:06:09.027
Mark Barga: Remarkable.

00:06:09.087 –> 00:06:15.027
And I have to say that I’m very proud to have spent many, many hours at the Children’s Museum with my own children in Pittsburgh.

00:06:15.027 –> 00:06:17.097
And it is a spectacular place for sure.

00:06:17.181 –> 00:06:19.131
Well, thank you for giving me a little bit of your background.

00:06:19.131 –> 00:06:29.060
Now, as it pertains to our conversation today, you’ve also found yourself as a partner or consultant for many very interesting and innovative school districts.

00:06:29.287 –> 00:06:44.857
As far as I know, in, in the greater Pittsburgh region, but potentially beyond that, have really stepped outside the box and, uh, brought in
some of the philosophical and some of the ideation that takes place at the Children’s Museum into their own school modernization programs.

00:06:45.247 –> 00:06:50.647
Can you share a little bit about how you found yourself in those conversations and working on those types of projects?

00:06:50.647 –> 00:06:55.417
And it’s not notably, many of these are very highly regarded architecturally, but also educationally.

00:06:55.777 –> 00:06:58.417
Can you talk a little bit about how you found yourself doing that type of work?

00:06:59.042 –> 00:06:59.332
Anne Fullenkamp: Sure.

00:06:59.497 –> 00:07:07.493
Well, it’s kind of that continuation because the Children’s Museum, my temporary job got extended and extended and eventually, I started working there.

00:07:07.988 –> 00:07:16.968
And part of that was to continue, we design and build, everything in-house and we have an in-house research and learning department, which is key.

00:07:17.208 –> 00:07:20.568
So our museum, we consider it, and it is a laboratory.

00:07:20.928 –> 00:07:29.905
We in this constant R&D where we’re designing, prototyping, putting things out on the floor, presenting them, and then starting that process over and over again.

00:07:30.243 –> 00:07:48.092
Our work with schools really kind of, um, came into focus around 2012, where, like I I mentioned the museum had gone through a major renovation in 2004, but one thing in the museum world, exhibits have pretty, short lifespans because they’re so heavily used.

00:07:48.092 –> 00:07:53.252
So after about five years, even the permanent exhibits, you have to start thinking about what’s next.

00:07:53.552 –> 00:08:01.996
So, around 2011, our team was focusing in on this next, this phenomenon called Maker, and what that was.

00:08:02.074 –> 00:08:10.939
Maker fairs had started to pop up in San Francisco and that kind of, trend or this new, idea of maker and maker fairs was popping up.

00:08:10.939 –> 00:08:22.003
So we were exploring that, and then we had also already been doing that in a work, we called it a workshop where we were, had real tools, materials, out for kids.

00:08:22.003 –> 00:08:27.940
And we, our focus was on, uh, design philosophy called, , it still is called play with real stuff.

00:08:28.270 –> 00:08:40.150
So we had these activities about woodworking and, and simple circuits and sewing and, and really teaching these hands-on skills and in a very casual way.

00:08:40.630 –> 00:08:41.260
And that’s the.

00:08:42.400 –> 00:08:47.740
Interesting thing about learning in a children’s museum, we call it informal learning practices, which is play.

00:08:47.740 –> 00:08:48.670
It’s which things?

00:08:48.670 –> 00:08:50.120
No expectations, no grades.

00:08:50.120 –> 00:08:51.430
Just I’m curious.

00:08:51.430 –> 00:08:52.630
I’m going to mess around.

00:08:53.110 –> 00:08:59.020
So around 2012, the maker movement was really kind of becoming a thing.

00:08:59.154 –> 00:09:15.266
Our executive director came very involved with it and we partnered with this national maker movement and we ended up creating MakeShop, and that was a project that one of the first, exhibit projects that I got to design fully in-house.

00:09:15.266 –> 00:09:22.538
So we designed and built our make shop and with that we had a, established our, learning and research team.

00:09:22.568 –> 00:09:28.057
And our first director of, um, learning and research was, getting her dissertation.

00:09:28.057 –> 00:09:30.397
She did her PhD on Make Shop.

00:09:30.697 –> 00:09:32.617
So that was a great opportunity too.

00:09:32.617 –> 00:09:34.297
‘Because we built this together.

00:09:34.627 –> 00:09:37.507
Our make shop was part of that, um, research work.

00:09:37.507 –> 00:09:46.623
And then we went on they, they had a, we had a big grant with Google, and created this making and learning framework on how to create informal learning environments.

00:09:46.623 –> 00:10:02.660
So that’s how we kind of established ourselves with these relationships with schools where we were showing the education world, how you can
create a space that supports informal learning, but in a way that could complement learning, uh, the, the formal learning world and classrooms.

00:10:02.660 –> 00:10:04.550
So that’s how we really got started.

00:10:04.940 –> 00:10:19.460
Um, and then kind of to your point, I was this itinerant architect designer that had found this Playland in the children’s museum, was loving my career, and I would have conversations with my friends and colleagues in the architecture world.

00:10:19.846 –> 00:10:26.516
I started talking to some folks about what I was doing and, this idea, informal learning and formal learning and how those two could merge.

00:10:26.516 –> 00:10:28.766
So I think that’s where this really started.

00:10:29.408 –> 00:10:32.408
Mark Barga: You’ve said a lot there, that is all worth circling back to.

00:10:32.408 –> 00:10:36.518
But I want to sort of put a pin in one thing you said and a ask you to expand on it.

00:10:36.518 –> 00:10:43.388
If I may, you know, you know, we do hear regularly this idea that design supports pedagogy, Right?

00:10:43.838 –> 00:10:58.418
And, but, but I actually think that you, you’ve done something where in some senses you’ve flipped that right to where you’ve actually shown that design can be, it doesn’t just support, it can actually be a catalyst, Right?

00:10:58.418 –> 00:10:59.648
It can transform.

00:10:59.940 –> 00:11:03.150
I’m wondering if you could just talk a little bit about that piece right there.

00:11:03.200 –> 00:11:14.990
How can space and design actually not just support existing pedagogy, but actually create a new terrain for kids to explore and teachers to explore?

00:11:16.010 –> 00:11:17.060
Anne Fullenkamp: Yeah, absolutely.

00:11:17.165 –> 00:11:33.698
I always say this, I’m a completely different designer, having worked at the Children’s Museum more because I can never get away from my client either, you know, the museum, my boss is our client, but also the kids, the visitors are our clients every day.

00:11:33.698 –> 00:11:43.573
So good or bad, there’s no hiding, running away from my mistakes or the, on the other hand too, constantly, I can always fix things.

00:11:43.763 –> 00:11:45.773
I see how things are being used in real life.

00:11:46.313 –> 00:11:53.003
The museum educators, the staff, myself, my team, the visitors, it’s like, okay, can we replace this?

00:11:53.003 –> 00:11:53.243
We can.

00:11:53.273 –> 00:11:57.503
So I’ve had this opportunity to be in this laboratory setting constantly

00:11:57.893 –> 00:12:00.653
Mark Barga: You’re like the architect who has to live in the school.

00:12:00.653 –> 00:12:01.008
They design.

00:12:01.763 –> 00:12:03.953
Anne Fullenkamp: Yes, literally good and bad.

00:12:04.209 –> 00:12:07.929
But having said that, that’s one of the things that I’ve really learned.

00:12:07.929 –> 00:12:30.255
It’s opened my eyes to really understand, and it’s made me a much more humble designer too, that sometimes, I think that’s one of my biggest takeaway is to make
sure that the architecture, the FF&E, the furniture fixtures and equipment, don’t become a barrier to what the people in the space want to do in the moment.

00:12:30.555 –> 00:12:35.655
And I think that’s from a informal, this idea of informal learning practices.

00:12:35.865 –> 00:12:43.359
And I think in schools it applies probably, most directly is this idea of flexibility and responsive design.

00:12:43.359 –> 00:12:47.889
It’s something, you know, those terms are now kind of becoming common, which is exciting.

00:12:48.099 –> 00:13:01.719
But if we think about schools and what a traditional classroom is, where you had the rows of desks and you have the teacher’s desk and you had the chalkboard and everything is fixed and that you’re not supposed to mess around or move anything.

00:13:02.139 –> 00:13:08.169
Or if a teacher or somebody wanted to make a change, they have to call facilities, put in a work order.

00:13:08.559 –> 00:13:16.689
It becomes this whole process that in the moment if a teacher and a student, something comes up, somebody asks a question, oh, that’s interesting.

00:13:17.169 –> 00:13:20.169
You have a, you have five minutes at most, you’re in the moment.

00:13:20.754 –> 00:13:22.554
You are not going to, you don’t have time.

00:13:22.554 –> 00:13:29.634
You know, it’s like if, if the school base doesn’t serve what’s happening in the moment, you move on and you forget and the bell rings and it’s over.

00:13:29.964 –> 00:13:43.404
So that’s where, in a museum, the other, the big piece that kind of has has the, from the design converge is that a museum, we are a museum and people come and they pay.

00:13:43.554 –> 00:13:49.261
So there’s, uh, expected value, and you want to see and be able to do things you can’t do anywhere else.

00:13:49.261 –> 00:13:50.221
You can’t do at home.

00:13:50.611 –> 00:13:57.571
And As a museum designer, we have a responsibility to curate and create a beautiful looking space.

00:13:58.021 –> 00:14:04.325
And the other thing too is when you come into a space, whether it’s our make shop or another exhibit, you’re on your own.

00:14:04.375 –> 00:14:18.296
And at a children’s museum, there’s so many factors, there isn’t a docent who’s necessarily going to, there might be a museum educator, but
that experience, you’re, you’re very, um, independent in how you’re going to approach or enter an exhibit and experience it for the first time.

00:14:18.986 –> 00:14:29.818
So when we were designing Make Shop, a lot of the decisions were about, how the, the furniture, the materials, the look and feel can convey what you’re supposed to do.

00:14:30.502 –> 00:14:39.195
So that’s where we were deciding what kind of flooring, what kind of, what to put on the walls.

00:14:39.405 –> 00:14:50.145
We wanted to create that feeling of a workshop, that feeling of like, I can come in here, that good balance between mess and organization to make it feel accessible.

00:14:50.865 –> 00:14:54.075
But also to tell the story of what you’re supposed to do here.

00:14:54.465 –> 00:15:05.370
And I think those are some of the elements that we’re trying to bring into the school environment to, to give some more autonomy to the children and the teachers.

00:15:05.757 –> 00:15:14.048
So the design of the exhibit spaces, Really about telling the story of, of what you, um, can do here.

00:15:14.048 –> 00:15:22.598
The possibilities, the opportunities, the aspirational, and be, and it needs, and a museum experience really needs to be inspiring.

00:15:22.658 –> 00:15:28.568
And so in our Make Shop, for example, we have projects everywhere.

00:15:28.568 –> 00:15:46.388
We have the tools, we have the materials just out to not only tell people what this space is about, what you’re going to do here, but maybe inspire you
to do something because there’ll be a museum educator, we’ll have activities planned, but you’re not coming in with a teacher giving you the lesson.

00:15:46.658 –> 00:15:55.718
We want to encourage that independent, um, exploration and really, you know, inspire people to want to learn to how to sew or what are these circuit blocks.

00:15:55.718 –> 00:16:06.398
So that kind of spirit is what, um, when we work with schools now, we try to capture that spirit and, and have, how can a classroom.

00:16:06.878 –> 00:16:07.988
Be that inspiring.

00:16:08.078 –> 00:16:34.388
And I know one of the things, um, that we would observe and in casual conversations with my architecture friends, when I would talk about what we were doing in, uh, the Children’s Museum compared to what was happening
in the school environment, what we were hearing from teachers is that, you know, a school bus comes up for a field trip to the Children’s Museum and it’s like you can literally see the bus shaking with excitement.

00:16:34.388 –> 00:16:35.558
The kids cannot wait.

00:16:35.588 –> 00:16:40.415
They’re, uh, they can’t wait to get off the bus, come into the museum on a field trip.

00:16:41.105 –> 00:16:46.025
They don’t necessarily react that way when the school bus pulls up to school in the morning.

00:16:46.505 –> 00:16:59.090
So why are kids so excited to come into the museum where in a space like Make Shop for example, or even some of our other interactive spaces, they might be exploring and learning the same lessons.

00:16:59.090 –> 00:17:08.750
‘Because you know, teachers come with learning goals and work with our museum educators in the field trips are very focused and very content rich.

00:17:08.990 –> 00:17:17.480
But why are kids so excited to learn about math and circuitry or whatever they’re learning about at the Children’s Museum?

00:17:17.480 –> 00:17:21.170
And they don’t have that same enthusiasm when they go into the classroom every day.

00:17:21.500 –> 00:17:27.080
And part of that is the setting that freedom, that independence, that free exploration.

00:17:27.410 –> 00:17:30.860
And this is where also we can observe and what we’ve seen from teachers.

00:17:31.475 –> 00:17:38.525
They’re happier too because they’re put it more in a supportive role, coaching role.

00:17:38.735 –> 00:17:52.265
Um, and they can have more freedom to be responsive, to answer the kids’ questions to, to um, see a kid who’s curious about something, who frankly was not curious about it in a classroom, and they get excited and inspired.

00:17:52.505 –> 00:18:03.815
So I think that’s the overall spirit, how we can capture the enthusiasm, the joy of being in a museum and bring some of that into the daily life of a school.

00:18:05.195 –> 00:18:07.025
Mark Barga: So much there to, to circle back to.

00:18:07.025 –> 00:18:11.075
But I want to, you know, take, take an off ramp into sort of where you just left off.

00:18:11.360 –> 00:18:22.190
I think every great designer and every great design firm and every school district who’s really approaching the process of modernization or new construction the right way, they are getting input from various constituencies, Right.

00:18:22.190 –> 00:18:23.480
And sometimes even students.

00:18:23.480 –> 00:18:23.690
Right.

00:18:23.690 –> 00:18:31.145
But I think at the core of your approach is the centering of student experiences and, and, and young people as learners.

00:18:31.445 –> 00:18:42.965
I’m wondering if you could just expand a little bit upon how you bring student voice and young people as learners, their voices into the design process with your school clients specifically.

00:18:44.090 –> 00:18:44.390
Anne Fullenkamp: Yeah.

00:18:44.390 –> 00:19:04.711
So, um, one of the things we’ve been able to do, we have a, so lucky, I work with such talented people, but through our, um, research and learning team, we’ve really developed an
interesting process where we can go into schools, work with students, and really have them be co-designers and do, design charrettes, but with the students as the main participants.

00:19:04.921 –> 00:19:20.897
I know as designers, we’ve all done design charrettes and we bring in all the stakeholders and we do that, but we’ll do this with an entire
third grade with a hundred kids, or we’ll do it with a classroom, but where we put the kids, through the whole iterative design process.

00:19:21.159 –> 00:19:25.021
But not in an abstract way, or a pretend way.

00:19:25.201 –> 00:19:28.321
We’re giving them the real design challenge.

00:19:28.351 –> 00:19:29.581
This is your classroom.

00:19:29.791 –> 00:19:33.481
How would you, what are the things that you want to be able to do?

00:19:33.481 –> 00:19:48.233
And frankly, and this is one of the reasons that I think I’ve been able to be successful at the Children’s Museum, is I didn’t have
any early childhood experience coming in, to working at the Children’s Museum Because at the end of the day, children are people.

00:19:48.613 –> 00:20:02.958
Um, and for the design process, it’s new information for a lot of people and children are humans, and we have the same design aesthetics and needs as human beings, we want comfort.

00:20:03.226 –> 00:20:06.085
The principles of good design apply to all humans.

00:20:06.115 –> 00:20:15.655
Um, and I think that idea, that sense of belonging, that this is their space that they had agency is really key.

00:20:15.685 –> 00:20:26.935
And bringing them into the design process early and letting them know that the adults in their life are doing this for them and care about them makes a big difference.

00:20:27.164 –> 00:20:30.655
But it’s just, it’s this sense of, respect and agency.

00:20:30.655 –> 00:20:40.830
So, what we do is we, have a many ways we do this, but it, it’s, they come in, they can draw, they can use objects, depending on the specifics of the school.

00:20:40.830 –> 00:20:45.900
It might be a very specific, like, you’re getting this new playground, you’re getting this new classroom.

00:20:46.110 –> 00:20:47.370
What do you want in it?

00:20:47.790 –> 00:20:56.580
Um, we work with the teachers and the schools pretty closely to, to set up the design challenge for each school.

00:20:56.580 –> 00:21:07.779
But at the end of the day, it’s really about the students using all kinds of ways to communicate what they need in their school, what they need for them personally.

00:21:07.779 –> 00:21:17.206
I think that’s another big factor is letting the students know that it really is about their personal learning experience too, and having that free choice.

00:21:17.206 –> 00:21:22.950
I think that’s, one of the, the, the most, the biggest differences that they really have choice.

00:21:23.340 –> 00:21:33.426
And a big factor that we go into all of the design charrettes, even when we’re working with the adult stakeholders, we start with, with how it’s going to look and feel.

00:21:33.846 –> 00:21:41.136
How does your school day look and feel, rather than how many seats do you need?

00:21:41.359 –> 00:21:46.419
It was all about the experience and what are you gonna do and what do you want to do?

00:21:46.818 –> 00:21:57.138
And I think if that’s where we center it, it’s, you know, this is a place where, you know, we all the teachers and the students, they spend a lot, uh, a big part of their day and their lives.

00:21:57.378 –> 00:22:02.268
So, you know, when you come into this space, what do you have to do?

00:22:02.328 –> 00:22:04.278
What do you want to do, and how do you feel when you’re there?

00:22:04.966 –> 00:22:16.846
Mark Barga: I love how you just described the moment of framing where you talk about what do you do and what do you want to be able to do.

00:22:16.846 –> 00:22:27.196
I think this is the, the greatest designers that I’ve been fortunate enough to be around, shine a light into what’s possible, you know, and I think that’s like a, that’s, it’s hard to do within institutional education.

00:22:27.196 –> 00:22:28.066
It’s very difficult.

00:22:28.486 –> 00:22:34.036
Um, the realities of school life and district life, the dynamics there are real challenges institutionally.

00:22:34.366 –> 00:22:42.376
Um, and so, you know, the existence and, and, you know, the proximity to great designers I think is such an important part of the, of the guiding process.

00:22:42.586 –> 00:23:02.991
I actually, digging a little bit deeper onto that, you know, I mean, sometimes there is a large disconnect between, you know, the language, the
perspective, the vision of the design firm or the designers who are sort of helping guide the district and the actual practical realities on the ground.

00:23:03.306 –> 00:23:21.327
What are some of the trade-offs or tensions or, you know, challenges that you’ve navigated with your clients you know, whether it’s budgetary, whether it’s personnel, whether it’s programmatic,
where, whether there are other contextual factors that, that create hurdles, you know, what are some of the things that you’ve learned or experienced in those, in those situations?

00:23:21.760 –> 00:23:23.980
Anne Fullenkamp: Yeah, I think, you know, that’s an excellent point.

00:23:23.980 –> 00:23:37.629
I think the, the first barrier, that I experience when, when working with a district who’s not familiar with us, it’s, they hear that a museum, they hear that somebody’s bringing in a museum to design the school.

00:23:37.719 –> 00:23:42.189
They immediately think that it’s going to be hugely expensive.

00:23:42.309 –> 00:23:43.599
Oh, we can’t afford that.

00:23:43.815 –> 00:23:46.785
So that’s the first thing that I try to dispel.

00:23:46.785 –> 00:23:49.395
It’s that I’m actually trying to do the opposite.

00:23:49.519 –> 00:23:54.109
Yes, we’re a museum, but we’re a nonprofit children’s museum.

00:23:54.499 –> 00:23:58.558
We are not the MET, like art museums, we are poor.

00:23:59.518 –> 00:24:02.698
We are, we are living the life of the teacher in the classroom.

00:24:03.120 –> 00:24:07.830
We understand budgets, we are, you know, repurpose things.

00:24:08.070 –> 00:24:26.969
So that, that’s the first piece that I tried to, set a, a level set is that, and, and that’s goes to, you know, when I was talking before about
being my own client, I’m also my facilities, you know, team and the operations and the day-to-day care of the facility is also on our plate too.

00:24:26.969 –> 00:24:27.989
So I see that.

00:24:28.289 –> 00:24:44.099
So that’s the first thing, um, that I think we try to do is, if anything, from our perspective at the Children’s Museum in Pittsburgh, we’re trying to show how, um, you can save money or my favorite phrase is, get the most bang for your buck.

00:24:44.279 –> 00:24:48.329
Take the money you have and put it where it makes the most sense.

00:24:48.449 –> 00:24:59.684
Because there’s some things when you’re dealing with children that are going to have to be replaced, regularly, and then there are other things that can last generations.

00:24:59.684 –> 00:25:07.394
And that’s kind of a bigger idea, getting back to the facility and getting into this idea of getting institutional buy-in.

00:25:07.828 –> 00:25:14.575
When a community designs a museum, it’s for generations, a lifetime.

00:25:14.995 –> 00:25:16.909
Museums are a a hundred years old.

00:25:17.089 –> 00:25:19.279
The Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh is young.

00:25:19.549 –> 00:25:27.999
We’re 43 years old and that’s a new, still a young museum, but, communities build museums for generations.

00:25:28.689 –> 00:25:30.909
Schools are no longer built that way.

00:25:31.189 –> 00:25:38.239
And that is becoming a problem in the country because it’s unsustainable.

00:25:38.689 –> 00:25:45.889
If schools need to be updated every, you know, if, if they’re getting outmoded, um, it’s a huge burden on communities.

00:25:46.129 –> 00:25:55.609
But how we can think about the school building lasting 50, like what we’re doing today, but what is it going to be in 20 years, in 30 years, in 50 years?

00:25:55.789 –> 00:26:13.689
And can we build, especially if it’s a new build, can we build in a system so that every semester it can be updated every year, it
can be updated every five years, every 10 years, every 20 years, and think more in a facilities management way like a museum does.

00:26:13.921 –> 00:26:17.161
So that’s the big factor, and that’s gets into budget.

00:26:17.161 –> 00:26:19.801
So that’s usually the first barrier is budget.

00:26:20.213 –> 00:26:27.833
Mark Barga: You know, you just actually astonished me by saying that the Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh is 43 years old, yet I’ve been in there fairly recently.

00:26:28.133 –> 00:26:29.873
It’s vibrant, it’s alive.

00:26:30.878 –> 00:26:35.486
It’s obviously modern, it’s very much an ecosystem for exploration.

00:26:35.846 –> 00:26:43.046
But if you go into a school building most places that’s 43 years old, you’re very unlikely to describe it in those terms.

00:26:43.226 –> 00:26:54.836
So I just think like, you know, job well done and, you know, for that organization to really keep students, you know, evolution, exploration, iteration at the center of like the institutional culture.

00:26:54.836 –> 00:26:58.416
I just think it’s, I do think it’s worth, you know, celebrating that for a moment, as you were saying.

00:26:59.396 –> 00:27:00.266
Anne Fullenkamp: Well, but thank you.

00:27:00.266 –> 00:27:04.046
And that goes to the core of, of some of our design consulting work.

00:27:04.076 –> 00:27:13.046
It’s how you can build this so it can function more like a museum in that we have galleries that have to change out frequently.

00:27:13.376 –> 00:27:19.226
Some spaces change out daily, like our Make Shop and art studio that’s very responsive.

00:27:19.226 –> 00:27:22.916
That functions more like a classroom where there are different things happening every day.

00:27:23.293 –> 00:27:28.658
But then there are art exhibitions that are up for a month, three months, a year.

00:27:29.428 –> 00:27:34.648
Then there are exhibits are permanent exhibits that are 10 years old.

00:27:34.948 –> 00:27:41.458
But how, frankly as a business, how we can entice people and make it feel fresh every time they come.

00:27:41.608 –> 00:28:17.878
So that’s how we think about the facility walls and the furniture and all the stuff in there so that the designer in my role, in my team’s role, we’re not going to be in an exhibit necessarily
every day, changing things around, but how we could work with our museum educators and our floor staff so they can make small changes, do programs, do things so it feels fresh work with our art
curators so they can change out the artwork and kind of build that layered system so that someone in my role, I’m working on some capital projects that the visitors will see in two and three years.

00:28:18.028 –> 00:28:24.226
But then on any given day, our studio, um, arts manager has transformed the art studio.

00:28:24.226 –> 00:28:27.646
So it feels completely different than it did last weekend.

00:28:28.006 –> 00:28:35.836
So that kind of thinking from a facilities management point of view is what we try to bring in the consulting role.

00:28:36.055 –> 00:28:38.875
And sometimes it’s classroom by classroom.

00:28:38.935 –> 00:28:46.105
When we do get to work on a capital project and are brought in, um, that’s kind of the advice.

00:28:46.340 –> 00:29:09.226
We want to work in tandem as part of a team with the architects, with the interior designers, with the furniture reps. I’m kind of like the, um, I’m the reality check, the dream
crusher, because the other piece of it is I can say, oh, you know what, in a year that whiteboard, this is i’ll, I don’t think anyone’s on the whiteboard will, uh, fault me on this.

00:29:09.406 –> 00:29:11.026
The whiteboard will need to be replaced.

00:29:11.026 –> 00:29:25.356
It’s really hard to get those blue shadow lines off, but what if we make the whiteboard replaceable, put something on the on the wall so facilities can quickly change that out without having to put in a work order and build it in.

00:29:25.716 –> 00:29:34.746
So there’s certain items like that just from my, frankly, my war stories and my experience of having to replace things and made my mistakes.

00:29:34.746 –> 00:29:35.826
So those are the kind of things.

00:29:35.826 –> 00:29:40.716
But I think, getting back to your question, um, budget is usually the first barrier.

00:29:40.721 –> 00:29:53.938
And, and looking at how we understand the year to year operations, the, the, um, operations budgets and how we can, can look at that and try to, to help everyone make the most out of the money they have.

00:29:54.167 –> 00:30:09.436
And then the other piece is I, I always love to, um, work really closely with the facilities managers the teams and the operations teams of the school because even the best well-intended architects and, and designers and everything, they’re going to move on.

00:30:09.436 –> 00:30:12.016
There’s that, that punch list turnover.

00:30:12.286 –> 00:30:21.166
And then it becomes the facilities manager’s job to really take care of the school and have this work beyond opening the first day of school.

00:30:21.349 –> 00:30:31.129
And sometimes because of their limits, their budgets and their daily operation needs, they’ll make different design decisions that work for them.

00:30:31.159 –> 00:30:51.799
So that’s the other piece is if we can get buy-in and cooperation from the operations team, really understand what they’re dealing with and build that in to
the whole model of the school and that make them feel, ‘because they are a huge part of the school life and making the design work if they can be a part of it.

00:30:51.799 –> 00:31:04.099
So even if it’s something as simple as what kind of flooring they like, the corners, you know, how, how they’re going to deal with corners, that’s always a big issue the walls, all of that kind of stuff.

00:31:04.388 –> 00:31:09.324
That’s a big factor I think that I found that most people don’t think about.

00:31:09.534 –> 00:31:34.910
And going back to my life when I worked in architecture firms, the end user bringing them in at the, commissioning and the punch list and at the end we can bring the facilities people in from the beginning and
make them feel like a partner with the teacher ‘because that’s who at the end of the day, it’s the teacher talking to the facilities guy and asking for a new whiteboard, in year three after the construction.

00:31:35.300 –> 00:31:38.360
Those are the people who will be making the design decisions for the school.

00:31:38.645 –> 00:31:58.715
Mark Barga: It’s so interesting, you know, I mean, you are in this position of having one foot in the museum, in the design world and the other foot in the
educational world, and you know, the Children’s Museum gives you this vantage point on really values like curiosity and play and agency and imagination and belonging,

00:32:03.753 –> 00:32:08.493
You know, when we work with schools at K12, it’s not just about furniture design, it’s about impact.

00:32:08.733 –> 00:32:12.873
Our radically student-centered approach puts students at the center of every decision.

00:32:13.233 –> 00:32:19.503
From that first conversation to the final walkthrough, we’re focused on creating spaces that actually work for the kids.

00:32:19.923 –> 00:32:21.273
Teachers and the community.

00:32:21.573 –> 00:32:26.853
So if you’re looking to do more than just check a box on your next project, let’s talk Visit K12.com.

00:32:26.853 –> 00:32:35.583
That’s K-A-Y-T-W-E-L-V-E.com and see how we’re helping schools transform learning one student at a time.

00:32:35.913 –> 00:32:39.993
Because at K12, it’s not just about projects and furniture, it’s about purpose.

00:32:44.949 –> 00:32:54.069
Mark Barga: You know, when you look out on education as a space of practice, you know, do you think the trend lines are moving in the right direction with respect to those types of values?

00:32:54.069 –> 00:33:01.343
I mean, do you think that more educational, schools or districts or educational entities are really taking on those values?

00:33:01.343 –> 00:33:05.082
I mean, do, do you feel like, the future is bright with respect to values alignment?

00:33:05.380 –> 00:33:14.429
Anne Fullenkamp: I do, I do think also, um, you know, there’s this, focus on an understanding that not all students are the same.

00:33:14.999 –> 00:33:27.029
Um, that everyone has different learning styles, and if we can accommodate, um, and be more responsive to different kids’ learning styles, that everyone will thrive.

00:33:27.269 –> 00:33:30.976
I mean, that has been, something that’s really, powerful.

00:33:30.976 –> 00:33:42.114
And then, and we’re seeing a lot of great things and even this reintroduction of late to hands-on learning that not everything has to be on a screen and a computer.

00:33:42.414 –> 00:33:55.660
That, one thing that, you know, we, we talk about Maker and the maker movement is being this innovative new thing, but in all candor, anyone over, you know, over a certain age remembers shop class, home ec.

00:33:55.879 –> 00:34:09.831
You know, when that went away, I think we now see that we lost a lot of, a lot of kids, that really thrived in those kinds of learning environments and all the other thing too, it leaves common sense.

00:34:10.161 –> 00:34:15.351
All the things we learned, um, even the STEM things we learned by sewing.

00:34:15.981 –> 00:34:29.347
And I think that’s what’s kind of exciting, seeing the hands-on making, coming back side by side with the more traditional, traditional learning, math, science, literacy.

00:34:30.030 –> 00:34:39.180
I see there’s a lot of stress now because they’re, everyone is, is doing such a great job understanding the different learning styles.

00:34:39.300 –> 00:34:56.116
I think teachers are feeling very stressed to have so many personalized learning and, or feeling just stretched thin, having to do too much for too many students in a highly specialized way and, and not feeling like they have the capacity to do that.

00:34:56.476 –> 00:35:19.589
And that’s where, I do think design can be a factor because, you know, there are ways to set up a classroom, and even a school building that can create some better,
you know, simple things like sight lines so you can feel comfortable letting the one kid who needs to stand to do that without being disruptive to everyone else.

00:35:19.829 –> 00:35:31.409
Or have a small group of kids go out in the hallway who might be you know, able to work on a project together really successfully while the other kids are working more quietly one-on-one.

00:35:31.589 –> 00:35:40.289
So that’s where I do think the school design and thinking about the classroom differently and the hallways differently and the spaces.

00:35:40.739 –> 00:35:48.059
One thing I, I like to say it’s the spaces in between the classrooms are also places for curiosity learning.

00:35:48.509 –> 00:35:51.738
And, for schools it’s a big footprint.

00:35:51.828 –> 00:36:02.508
You’re paying to heat and heat the hallways and all the places in between the formal learning spaces are also part of the school that the school’s investing in and paying for.

00:36:02.688 –> 00:36:04.578
Why not use those spaces too?

00:36:04.851 –> 00:36:06.171
And the kids can do that.

00:36:06.171 –> 00:36:13.551
And if you can kind of start thinking about, you said ecosystem, but think about the whole building as part of your learning day.

00:36:14.271 –> 00:36:17.661
That could relieve some of the tension and the stress on the teachers.

00:36:17.961 –> 00:36:24.561
And that’s the other big factor, when we think about school, more designed, more like a museum.

00:36:25.131 –> 00:36:28.581
In a museum, we use every inch to tell our story.

00:36:28.851 –> 00:36:31.731
Every wall gets a piece of art at the Children’s Museum.

00:36:31.971 –> 00:36:40.776
The floors are considered as part of our wayfinding experiences, um, signage direction because our visitors come in, on their own.

00:36:40.776 –> 00:36:45.756
So we have to provide all these cues and we use every inch lighting in the ceilings, all of it.

00:36:46.241 –> 00:37:13.925
So I think that’s a big part of, you know, reimagining this idea of, of a new learning style, being more inclusive, the feeling of belonging, letting kids kind of do what they need to do in a given day, in
a moment so they can still stay within the school day into the routine, everyone can thrive and, and really, um, take some of that pressure off of the teachers, um, to feel like they have too much to do.

00:37:13.925 –> 00:37:18.905
I think that that’s part of the, um, still an ongoing challenge.

00:37:19.235 –> 00:37:23.195
Mark Barga: You’ve worked with many schools, you know, many educational leaders.

00:37:23.405 –> 00:37:25.985
I mean, these are passionate, committed people.

00:37:26.045 –> 00:37:26.375
Right?

00:37:26.375 –> 00:37:42.313
And, and at varying degrees of, of district leadership or school leadership, what is something that you reliably see people getting wrong about how kids experience space and how kids learn?

00:37:42.740 –> 00:37:47.187
Anne Fullenkamp: Just from a design standpoint, this idea that windows are distracting.

00:37:47.614 –> 00:37:53.554
Access to natural light, being able to see outside, I think is so important.

00:37:53.824 –> 00:37:59.833
Making the inside feel, like a place you want to be, not institutional, not oppressive.

00:37:59.983 –> 00:38:02.353
Having natural light is really important.

00:38:02.809 –> 00:38:04.969
Artificial lighting has gotten so much better.

00:38:04.969 –> 00:38:11.629
I mean, we’re so far beyond the fluorescence and that kind of, um, flickering, uh, lighting.

00:38:11.629 –> 00:38:26.344
But lighting is a huge factor and I think it’s um, allowing for dimness and change of light and that going back to nature and how light changes throughout the day as the sun moves and as clouds come and go.

00:38:26.674 –> 00:38:33.034
And having that change, um, inside should reflect that too.

00:38:33.034 –> 00:38:34.774
‘Because that’s how our bodies function.

00:38:35.044 –> 00:38:40.024
We’re used to following the sun and seasons changing.

00:38:40.024 –> 00:38:44.974
And so our brains and our biology is tuned in to understand that.

00:38:45.274 –> 00:38:52.354
And I think that’s a big factor when you’re in a building and the lighting is the same and flat all day, year round.

00:38:52.724 –> 00:39:04.346
But that’s kind of cool too as designers because LED lights are so affordable now, and the technology of lighting has gotten so sophisticated and the price has come down.

00:39:04.616 –> 00:39:11.516
I think that’s a huge opportunity to do really remarkable things that will serve the comfort and learning.

00:39:11.831 –> 00:39:13.691
So, so that’s one factor.

00:39:13.991 –> 00:39:21.281
And I think the other is, um, this, getting back to the, um, senses, surfaces all hard surfaces.

00:39:21.396 –> 00:39:23.977
I, I get the durability, of that.

00:39:24.277 –> 00:39:29.044
But when everything is tile, that creates one note.

00:39:29.794 –> 00:39:41.824
And getting back to the life of a school and all of the people and the monotony every day you’re in this school, nine months out of the year, eight hours a day sometimes.

00:39:41.824 –> 00:39:43.989
And it’s, it’s not just the students, it’s the teachers.

00:39:44.899 –> 00:39:54.709
Imagine if your world, if you set up your house where all the surfaces were, like your bathroom, imagine your entire house being fit out and finished like your bathroom.

00:39:55.037 –> 00:39:56.537
I mean, that would drive you crazy.

00:39:56.777 –> 00:39:59.297
So I think that variety of texture.

00:39:59.567 –> 00:40:04.247
Um, but you can still, and this is where the technology of materials have gotten much more sophisticated.

00:40:04.247 –> 00:40:10.787
You have these great laminated floors, but have a little warmth and they have a little cush and all of that kind of stuff.

00:40:10.907 –> 00:40:27.377
So I think the variety of material and just get staying in tune with who we are as, as beings and connecting with the senses, um, that yes, durability and maintenance is paramount, but recognizing that that kids are tuned into all of those comforts too.

00:40:27.647 –> 00:40:40.127
It’s not just like when as adults we get to designer houses or you can go to a different work environment and choose your, a lot of people today now in the current work environment, you can choose to work at home.

00:40:40.367 –> 00:40:47.477
You can choose a work environment, an office based on how, on what amenities they have.

00:40:48.024 –> 00:41:06.846
Since we’re talking about it, um, when we look at how colleges are designed and how college spaces and all the amenities of colleges, are using that as a competitive
edge to decide where you’re going to go and study the quality of the university centers, the quality, you know, how these things are going to look and feel.

00:41:06.846 –> 00:41:16.018
They’ve become architectural landmarks and, and using the architecture as, um, incentives to choose this school to study.

00:41:16.558 –> 00:41:21.958
Why aren’t we doing that in K-12, or even actually elementary school?

00:41:22.408 –> 00:41:26.548
It, it’s being, you can see that now in high schools, it’s kind of been in reverse.

00:41:26.548 –> 00:41:33.808
You see that kind of design aesthetic in high schools now around the country, but not necessarily in elementary schools.

00:41:34.166 –> 00:41:41.390
You see it sometimes in pre-K and, and kindergarten, but then there’s this kind of gap, and I think that’s where we think about it.

00:41:41.420 –> 00:41:45.578
Like full circle design aesthetics and comfort.

00:41:45.736 –> 00:41:48.957
Temperature lighting, sound.

00:41:49.287 –> 00:41:53.877
I think that’s the other thing, the acoustics, and that goes back to the hard surfaces.

00:41:54.027 –> 00:41:56.007
So it, it all plays together.

00:41:56.314 –> 00:42:15.964
Mark Barga: I might ask you to expand on this, on this point a little bit further, because in, in my travels and my, you know, close collaboration with both design firms
and school districts myself, it seems to me that one of the, one of the main foundational points in all of these conversations that schools misunderstand is movement.

00:42:16.834 –> 00:42:38.959
And there’s a, there’s a, a, a general aversion to too much movement and I’m, I’m wondering if, and you’ve seen this as well, I’m wondering if maybe you could talk about, you know, your perspective
on how movement is integral to, you know, all the po uh, positive and pro-social things that we care about with respect to both development and learning and, and all the other, you know, aspects.

00:42:39.754 –> 00:42:41.284
Anne Fullenkamp: Yeah, no, that’s an excellent point.

00:42:41.584 –> 00:43:07.212
I mean, actually one of the, when we design an exhibit, we have this kind of checklist of, the way we approach our exhibit design, the museum is we try to have a, a balance
of various elements, and one is having gross motor and fine motor skill within the same space, because at any given time, a child needs to move the gross motor play.

00:43:07.692 –> 00:43:16.602
And then in that same space and maybe five minutes later they’ll want to do something that’s a fine motor skill or a sit in a quiet and read a book.

00:43:16.902 –> 00:43:18.312
And we see that in the museum.

00:43:18.312 –> 00:43:26.532
It’s remarkable where you’ll see a kid running around, running around in circles, and then a minute later they’ve sat down and they’ve got a book in their lap.

00:43:27.012 –> 00:43:34.335
And I think that is key to being able, especially when they’re younger, to acknowledge that you need that gross motor play.

00:43:34.335 –> 00:43:36.615
You need that ability to move.

00:43:36.615 –> 00:43:43.455
And I mean, granted in a classroom, the understanding that you can’t be disruptive.

00:43:43.635 –> 00:43:52.995
But again, that the teachers and the educators, there’s a, um, and I’m far not an educator, but there are developmental stages of childhood.

00:43:53.565 –> 00:44:01.635
And as you get older, you’re, you’re better able to regulate, regulate and balance the gross motor, fine motor and your impulse control.

00:44:01.845 –> 00:44:09.730
But certainly the younger the kids, the, the impulse control and the needing to get up and get the wiggles out and, and having that balance.

00:44:09.730 –> 00:44:10.930
But it continues through life.

00:44:10.930 –> 00:44:12.160
Like adults.

00:44:12.190 –> 00:44:12.430
Again,

00:44:12.550 –> 00:44:13.655
Mark Barga: It’s physiology.

00:44:13.990 –> 00:44:19.750
Anne Fullenkamp: Physiology, thinking back to ourselves when we’re sitting stuck on Zoom calls for six hours.

00:44:20.110 –> 00:44:21.190
I mean, we feel terrible.

00:44:21.190 –> 00:44:23.775
It’s physically exhausting even though we haven’t moved.

00:44:24.160 –> 00:44:27.520
How, you know, you want to get up, take a walking break.

00:44:28.360 –> 00:44:29.770
Children are the same way.

00:44:29.770 –> 00:44:35.701
So that’s where thinking about the spaces in between, what that hallway experience can be in a positive way.

00:44:36.062 –> 00:44:38.852
Having sitting and standing chairs, things like that.

00:44:39.182 –> 00:44:45.428
But also thinking about, recess in a way, how the building inside can be used for recess.

00:44:45.428 –> 00:44:48.458
I know we’ve had a lot of fun at our museum.

00:44:48.458 –> 00:44:54.458
We have, um, something we call the limb bender, which is an ant farm looking thing that’s a wall.

00:44:54.548 –> 00:44:56.798
So basically it’s this series of platforms.

00:44:57.488 –> 00:45:02.918
That is a, a, a wall that is our, uh, a grand on our grand stair.

00:45:02.918 –> 00:45:11.798
It’s the wall for the grand stair, but it’s a, it’s only two feet wide, but it’s a 20 foot tall vertical climbing structure.

00:45:11.948 –> 00:45:13.118
It takes up no space.

00:45:13.388 –> 00:45:22.988
Kids often come in, go through that as part of their pathway to the museum, uh, ramps, stairs, getting kids thinking about those experience.

00:45:22.988 –> 00:45:28.898
Something as simple as moving from one space to the other can check that box and then have the kids ready.

00:45:28.898 –> 00:45:42.399
So I think that’s an excellent point, that it’s in addition to the playground, it can just be that movement between classrooms, that could be that added need to fill the gross motor and fine motor skill balance.

00:45:42.628 –> 00:45:57.173
Mark Barga: It is really compelling, the research on physiology and movement and, you know, as you were saying, even movement that’s
relatively, you know, imperceptible, you know, uh, is just important for, for, for young learners to have, um, and for even us as well.

00:45:57.473 –> 00:45:58.193
Um, all right.

00:45:58.193 –> 00:46:22.390
Well, so I’m going to, I’m going to ask for just a few final words of wisdom, if I may to our friends superintendents, business managers, you know, directors of curriculum and instruction,
school principals, folks who are really living the life on the district side, who are dabbling with or exploring or maybe even beginning the journey of school transformation, right?

00:46:22.540 –> 00:46:25.420
They’re beginning this journey and we know it can take years.

00:46:25.450 –> 00:46:35.440
It is a, it is a year long, uh, you know, multiple year long process, uh, to successfully see one of these projects come to fruition, unbelievable amount of work and, and dedication.

00:46:35.638 –> 00:46:46.438
What final words of wisdom would you offer to, uh, any of our friends in our audience who maybe, you know, find themselves sitting in that seat who may be exploring this, the possibility of this future for them?

00:46:47.293 –> 00:46:47.533
Anne Fullenkamp: Yeah.

00:46:47.533 –> 00:46:52.333
Well, I think the first thing is don’t think you need a lot of money to get started.

00:46:52.473 –> 00:46:54.723
We used the phrase a small bet.

00:46:55.053 –> 00:47:05.883
Everything we’ve done at the museum that’s turned out to be really successful has started out with a small experiment, an idea, a tabletop idea, rearranging the furniture.

00:47:05.883 –> 00:47:12.063
Our, our whole make shop project that’s, that was a movement turned into this movement.

00:47:12.213 –> 00:47:15.333
Started with a corner, with a table with some blocks on it.

00:47:15.693 –> 00:47:22.233
So I think that’s the, the first thing is to, um, to get into that experimental mode.

00:47:22.233 –> 00:47:25.323
Your, your educators, your places for learning.

00:47:25.863 –> 00:47:27.843
Um, you have laboratories.

00:47:28.593 –> 00:47:32.883
Take a corner of your library, take an underused classroom.

00:47:34.293 –> 00:47:46.953
Experiment, set that up and that way before you invest huge amount of dollars, change systems, do anything, see how it goes first and make these small bets.

00:47:47.283 –> 00:47:50.673
And then do get, you know, just treat it like an experiment.

00:47:50.673 –> 00:47:52.383
Do these small proof of concepts.

00:47:52.653 –> 00:48:02.013
And then as a part of that, you can get the community buy-in, institutional buy-in, see which teachers might come and say, Hey, I’m really interested in this.

00:48:02.343 –> 00:48:07.983
And really kind of create that, build that culture from within first before you make these wholesale changes.

00:48:08.223 –> 00:48:16.353
Unless you are a superintendent rockstar who has this vision, and I’ve met them where

00:48:16.593 –> 00:48:17.238
Mark Barga: I know a few.

00:48:17.463 –> 00:48:26.306
Anne Fullenkamp: We know a few, who are going to say, who, who understand what you want to do, and are going to say, come you’re on the train or not, more power to you.

00:48:26.706 –> 00:48:36.636
Even if you are a visionary superintendent who understands what they want to do, I encourage you to set up a space to experiment.

00:48:37.236 –> 00:48:47.526
Let your parents, board members, community, students, teachers, everyone kind of come in and start playing with this idea of whatever you want to do.

00:48:47.556 –> 00:48:48.726
That is a big change.

00:48:49.245 –> 00:48:55.365
And I think the other piece of advice is, you know, I, I’m an architectural designer.

00:48:55.365 –> 00:48:56.475
I study architecture.

00:48:56.475 –> 00:48:57.885
I have great friends that are architects.

00:48:57.885 –> 00:48:59.205
I work with architects all the time.

00:48:59.985 –> 00:49:06.075
But at the end of the day, the school and the students and you and superintendents, you’re the client.

00:49:06.615 –> 00:49:07.635
This is your space.

00:49:07.635 –> 00:49:09.208
So be a good client.

00:49:09.208 –> 00:49:13.618
That’s one thing that I’ve learned at the Children’s Museum that we work with architects do.

00:49:13.978 –> 00:49:23.248
Um, we have a great team of architects that we work with on various projects, but at the end of the day, you have to be a good client, know what you want, and be informed.

00:49:23.248 –> 00:49:34.918
So that’s where bringing in other precedents, visiting other schools, you know, bringing, giving your architects as much information as you can about what you want to do in the space every day.

00:49:35.308 –> 00:49:45.868
Um, and I think that’s where, as a community of schools and designers, we have to work together to get out of the ease of routine, of rinse and repeat.

00:49:46.180 –> 00:49:51.370
Well last time we ordered a hundred chairs, so this time we’ll replace it with the same hundred chairs.

00:49:51.520 –> 00:49:52.660
That expediency.

00:49:52.900 –> 00:49:56.110
I think that’s where, for everyone’s sake, take a pause.

00:49:56.350 –> 00:49:57.490
Did we really need a hundred?

00:49:57.970 –> 00:50:00.790
Maybe we only need 50 ‘because these are fine.

00:50:00.790 –> 00:50:03.400
And that goes back to budget and all this stress.

00:50:03.400 –> 00:50:14.910
So I think that’s, from a, getting back to the FF&E facilities, I think we’re on a gerbil wheel kind of routine doing the same thing over and over ‘because that’s what we ordered last year.

00:50:14.910 –> 00:50:24.790
So we’re going to, ‘because I have been, um, gone to schools where they’ve opened a door and they have furniture they don’t need and it’s all brand new.

00:50:25.210 –> 00:50:30.280
Well, because we had, you know, we didn’t want to turn it down or we had her, this is what showed up.

00:50:30.640 –> 00:50:42.280
So I think that goes to the, this whole conversation where the end users and the designers and the service providers and the vendors, we all need to be better about working together.

00:50:42.592 –> 00:50:56.411
And not wasting money on the stuff that we really don’t need anymore because, you know, one of my favorite things, and I’ll leave this is, and I have a, a field trip coming up very soon that I’m really excited about.

00:50:56.411 –> 00:51:14.983
I’m, I’m going to be working with a school to put in a one maker space, but, they’re telling me that you’re going to, uh, they’re excited for me
to go because it’s an old school, like an old sixties school and they have rooms and rooms of old lab furniture and classroom furniture and things.

00:51:14.983 –> 00:51:19.423
And I, I know, ‘because somebody who’s connected me with them, they’re like, you’re going to love this.

00:51:19.813 –> 00:51:22.123
They’re wood tables, they’re metal stools.

00:51:22.243 –> 00:51:29.503
There are things that, um, interior designers would, you know, jump at, put in a loft, the counters, everything.

00:51:29.773 –> 00:51:33.823
But the school doesn’t have, doesn’t understand, doesn’t have a need for them.

00:51:33.943 –> 00:51:36.373
The counters are probably too heavy, nothing’s on casters.

00:51:36.613 –> 00:51:42.973
But this idea that all the furniture is replaceable and disposable and we just all are accumulating too much stuff.

00:51:43.243 –> 00:51:52.038
And I think that’s something that schools, facilities really have to look really hard at and see, okay, do we really need new tables and chairs to do the learning?

00:51:52.398 –> 00:51:55.728
Sometimes we do, um, storage, that kind of thing too.

00:51:55.968 –> 00:52:22.905
Really thinking about the bones and the fundamental furniture, not as the primary driver of how you’re spending money and how you’re doing the design, but let the end user experience
the learning experience, be the design driver of what the stuff you end up buying is, because maybe it’s about trading, rearranging some of the stuff, getting some new stuff.

00:52:23.115 –> 00:52:32.210
But I think that’s, I think a, another big factor, flipping that on its head and not let the FF&E be the design driver.

00:52:32.860 –> 00:52:48.300
Mark Barga: Well, Anne, it’s been an absolute pleasure to spend an hour with you and I want to thank you for giving us your time, your insight,
and uh, wish you all the best as you continue doing incredible work and making a huge impact in the greater Pittsburgh region and beyond.

00:52:48.360 –> 00:52:51.060
So thank you so much for giving us your, your time this morning.

00:52:51.390 –> 00:52:52.320
Anne Fullenkamp: Well, thank you, Mark.

00:52:52.320 –> 00:52:53.790
It’s been a pleasure talking with you.

00:52:53.790 –> 00:52:56.040
And I, I know we’ll see each other again soon.

00:52:56.610 –> 00:52:57.270
Mark Barga: Yes, we will.

00:52:57.990 –> 00:52:58.210
All right.

00:52:58.230 –> 00:52:58.650
Be well.