Read Transcript:

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Jeff Kubiak: Welcome everybody to the Better Learning podcast.

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I’m Jeff Kubiak with Kay-Twelve, and I’m with Carla Cummins and the one and only Jesse Miller.

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Welcome, Jesse.

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Jesse Miller: Thanks.

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Thanks for having me.

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Jeff Kubiak: Why don’t you share a little bit about the Jesse Miller background and story, and we will get started.

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Jesse Miller: Sure.

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Uh, you want me to take it from birth, Jeff, or just, uh, my professional career?

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Carla Cummins: We would actually like you to call your mother, because that’s where it really starts.

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Jeff Kubiak: Ancestry com.

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Jesse Miller: In the architectural field since, uh, 2004, um, graduated with bachelor’s master’s degree, um, been doing, K 12 architecture for my entire career.

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working with schools primarily in, uh, California, Nevada, and Texas.

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So I have worked across, um, the United States.

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worked for a few different firms currently.

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Um.

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PBK Architects is where I call home.

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the ability of my position currently, uh, is I am the managing senior principal of the West region, uh, for PBK, overseeing, about 270 professionals, um, in our nine offices located throughout the state of California.

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All of our markets, uh, K 12, higher education and our civic practice, they all intertwine together and are all focused essentially on delivering environments, uh, for education.

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So my specialty, um, and really that’s kind of a background intro on, on, on my career and, and where I’ve, how I’ve ended up.

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Carla Cummins: I always think of you and I was telling Jeff ’cause we were there this week, right?

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And I, and I’ve texted you, texted you recently where we were at an event, I think it was here in Arizona.

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And it was like, what’s your claim to fame?

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Jesse Miller: Yeah.

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Carla Cummins: And I know yours, but what is it?

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Jesse Miller: Well, I mean, I have so many.

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I, I, so I guess the question is, and I, and I say that with all humbleness of being able to work on some of the best story projects probably that reside in the United States.

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my real claim to fame, Carla, maybe if you’re thinking this is I, I started my first job.

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I worked on the Hotel del Coronado.

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Um.

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But my actual ACC claim to fame probably is, uh, you’ve seen, um, videos of me with Dr. Dre, um, as we’ve.

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working on the Compton High School, the first one, and then winning the second one for Compton Unified School District Centennial High School, where Dr. Dre actually attended Kendrick Lamar and the others was able to bring Dr.

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Dre into, uh, our office and do a design charette with him and some of his friends, um, and work with him to really craft.

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The new performing arts center for the Second Compton High School and let him tell us what these educational spaces should be based on his obviously amazing knowledge of the music industry.

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Um, so that was a really exciting time, um, learning from probably one of the greatest.

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producers of all time to understand how to design these student-centered spaces that would give the biggest impact for the kids of Compton to step right into the career paths when they graduate.

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Like what are they doing right now as Dr.

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Dre and his studio and where that future is going?

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Was a very exciting time.

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My other claim is of fame.

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I mean, I, you know, Palisades High School, we were working on the rebuild of Palisades High School, uh, with the devastating fires.

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I had a massive rebuild for Richmond High School that’s going on and, and claim to fame.

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There is Coach Carter, if you’ve seen the movie Coach Carter.

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so yeah, it’s been exciting.

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I, I, I feel very, very, uh, humble in the fact that I have been part of such.

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Amazing projects over the years that really impacted students and, and, and their future.

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Um, but yes, the Compton Unified ones with Dr. Dre, definitely, probably, you know, it’s not every day as a K 12 education architect that you find yourself working with.

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one of the masters of hip bomb.

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And uh, but that’s an exciting piece.

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I mean, you got everyone forgets that all of these famous folk and celebrity, they all came through the education system one way or another, and they do have a background just like we do, right?

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So,

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Carla Cummins: Oh yeah, absolutely.

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I didn’t realize you’ve always done education.

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so it didn’t, did it choose you?

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Did you choose it?

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Jesse Miller: Well, I can, I, I would say I didn’t always, so my first job out of college, while I was still attending grad school, I was doing healthcare architecture, um, and really thought healthcare, you know, again, first job outta school, right?

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So you think this is what I want to do for the rest of my life.

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It’s so exciting.

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Um, and so for first two years of my career, which I was working, full-time while attending grad school full-time, And married and had a kid.

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So that was an interesting couple years, was in the healthcare, uh, sector and it kind of worked out where I was working at a firm and we decided to relocate, and move and, uh, somehow ended up in the education studio at that firm.

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And the rest is kind of history.

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Was able to start, actually, my first project, uh, in education was a brand new high school.

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So, um, with the, with the complexities and as a kid just freshly, you know, out of grad school with a couple years working experience to be put in.

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On a new high school and kind of in charge and overseeing construction and understanding why it is what we’re creating.

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It was, it was just such a unique experience that, because it was already, some of it was already in construction.

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I got to experience that ribbon cutting day and all of the great stuff that really make K 12 projects just stand out from any other sector because.

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You know, when we do a ribbon cutting on, on, on the healthcare projects, no one was really that excited.

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Um, but obviously in the education realm, you get the bands, you get the cheerleaders, you get the future students, the educators, and it’s a whole community event.

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Hearkening back to like the days of your, where, you know, the schoolhouse was the, um.

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Was the center of a town and everyone had pride in their schools, and they had pride in, in, in their town based on their school.

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And so this what makes it exciting.

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Carla Cummins: Well, and it is like I, you, you said it very less, but I think the community gets so excited too.

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So to be able to walk through and know.

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What that building is gonna do within that community and how many kits are gonna get funneled through it.

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Right.

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Is such a, is such a big thing.

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Jesse Miller: Um, I would say, you know, I always get a tear in my eyes on ribbon cutting day.

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And, you know, especially Compton High School was definitely, uh, with Dr. Dre as a guest speaker with over 500 people in attendance with the bands, with the kids, like.

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You know, it makes you understand why we do what we do.

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Right.

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Uh, you know, I think even my first real experience, I think that, you know, hit me was, uh, a theater I did for Rialto Unified School District back in the day.

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It was.

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It a campus that was built in the fifties but never had a performing arts center on it.

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And when we opened that performing arts center, I mean, the whole town came and, uh, we had to keep, you know, yeah.

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We actually had to give tickets to the, uh, ribbon cutting ceremony because.

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Carla Cummins: really?

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Jesse Miller: you know, we started it outside so the whole town could kind of hear it, but then they were gonna do the first ever performance at the ribbon cutting ceremony on campus.

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And so we had to limit it to the number of seats of the theater.

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Right.

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Um, and I wasn’t expecting the superintendent and district to invite me up on stage to say a few words and everything like that, but it was just, uh, it was just such a beautiful night, a moment, and it just captures.

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the, the essence of the town, but really more what it captured is, you know, this is the first performance that these kids that grow up in that community, their lives will never not know having a performing arts center on that campus, right.

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The future generations.

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And so I’m always big.

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You know, my team, PBK, hears it all the time.

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I’m big on just saying, you know, we are impacting not to date the future generations of kids that you don’t even know about, you know?

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Carla Cummins: Well, we, we say on every, on all of our documentation, you know, we have our process.

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And, but not in there.

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The last step of it is legacy, right?

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Because what you’re doing is leaving a legacy and whether or not it’s on the school side or whether or not it’s on the design side, no matter where you are, right?

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Within the process of it, ultimately there is that legacy because they’re, I mean, I can’t even imagine how many kids go through these schools once they’re completed, you know, for the lifecycle of that, of that facility.

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So it is, it’s a legacy.

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I think.

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Jeff, you.

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Recently you got any questions for him?

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What do you need to know?

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Jeff Kubiak: Well, you know, I love to use that term legacy and I I appreciate that, uh, Jesse uses it with, um, the folks that he works alongside because e everyone has one and, and.

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You know, there’s a couple mottos, right?

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That it’s not about, you know, the money you have and the toys you die with, it’s about who you have positively impacted.

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You know, you got your John Wooden and your Coach Carter, like you said, and Dr. Dre, right?

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So, thinking about one of those iconic projects you’ve worked on, Jesse, what, what would be, if, if you had to step away tomorrow, what would be kind of legacy esque for you?

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Jesse Miller: it’s a, it’s an interesting question because of, not, ’cause I don’t have one, but because I don’t think in, in that terms, right.

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my whole personal mantra has to been to.

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Leave education space better than I’ve found it and how I can impact these students.

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and not just these students, but the generations and the generations and generations to come.

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Um, if I use Compton High School as an example, we recently toured 150 educators through that, uh, back in September.

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And the students during that tour.

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Set up stations of different areas of campus and what they were doing.

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So you had guitar studio, you had students in the, the recording studio mixing, uh, demos.

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You had students in their performing arts center doing a, a skit.

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You had, folks in math and science and uh, an under underwater, Robotics and, and then, and then just systems set up everywhere.

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And I, you know, still tear up even thinking about it because it’s like.

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Those kids were using the spaces that we designed on paper and in our head exactly how we wanted them to, and were even taking them above.

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But that’s the whole point, right?

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Was to create these spaces and places that kids can do anything they want to become anything they want to better their lives in the future to better their family’s lives in the future.

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And then you just keep building that.

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That rapport.

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I think, you know, it hit especially hard in a city like Compton, which is very well known across, you know, the globe probably for not always the reasons it should be known, but there’s amazing things happening there.

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There’s amazing stories.

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But you know, our high school was the first swimming pool to every.

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To really exist in this, in the city of Compton.

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Right.

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So principals said it best at, um, the ribbon cutting is there will be an Olympic swimmer from Compton one day, never been there before because they didn’t have a pool to practice in.

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Right?

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So providing these facilities that, even Dr. Dre and his speech talked about a certain kind of grit that is the city of Compton.

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Now they have the spaces, these kids actually have the spaces, they’ve already had the success without ’em.

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Now what could they do with them?

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Right?

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So when we look at schools and, and, and my legacy and the impact I can have on projects is I find.

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At least the phase that it, I can do it.

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The best, Jeff is, is, is definitely the programming and original schematic design to ensure we are providing.

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What’s next for kids?

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Not what’s now.

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Right.

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I always push, I’m gonna speak about it here at the cash conference.

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Uh, I always push of what’s the next, next, you know, we talk about next generation, you know, or 21st century learning.

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We’re already in 2026.

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I don’t wanna design what’s for today.

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I wanna design what’s, for 70 years from now, our buildings, these buildings have to last a hundred years.

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School districts can’t turn them, you know, in and out that quick.

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And so what do these spaces and, and what does teaching even look like?

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But so the legacy, going back to the legacy, I promise I’m landing my plane soon, but, really is just how do I, how do I spend taxpayer dollars?

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The best way possible for the longest way possible so that these schools, you know, stand, an era, right?

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We’re talking about couple generations.

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These schools have to last.

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The average age of a school in the United States is like, 1970 is like the, you know, 50 plus years, right?

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So these things have to last and they gotta be adaptable.

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Jeff Kubiak: Yeah.

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One thing that really resonated with me, what you said, Jesse, was that kids take the space or do things.

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That we have not even yet imagined.

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Right?

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So they have so much more learning knowledge, power than we give kids credit for.

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Right?

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And the work that we are all doing is to help empower and, and positively impact.

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And I think it’s so important that you brought that up, that you’re designing these amazing spaces and you create these things.

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But when we see kids take it to the next level and the next level that.

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Means we’re doing some something good, especially like you say, with tax taxpayer money and, and trying to be stewards of what we are bringing to ’em.

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Right.

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That’s fantastic.

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Carla Cummins: Yeah, so we always say, look, I wore my shirt.

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I, I went, I had a meeting at my daughter’s school this morning.

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I and I walked out and one of the ladies was like, I love that shirt.

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And I was like, I’ll bring them to you.

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So obviously it says radically student centered.

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It’s a term that we use all the time.

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It’s part of our process, So when you hear radically student centered, and I think that you may have answered this before, Jesse.

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If not, we’re just gonna have to, it’ll be the first time.

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But what does it mean to you?

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But I feel like I already have the answer.

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’cause you just kind of answered.

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Jesse Miller: yeah, but I think, you know, I’ve been thinking about it too since we talked about this, and I even seeing your guys’ logo all over the place, um, and, and understanding what K 12 does and further is.

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I’ve always thought about this too.

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Right.

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So to me, really being radically student centered, I’ve been thinking a lot about it basically means every decision, planning, design, budgets, schedules, all the things you
think about a construction project and architectural design project, they’re all gonna answer one simple question and that’s will this make a student’s daily experience better?

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Because eventually the building’s open, everyone forgets about the design.

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Everyone forgets about the construction process, the schedule, what this thing costs.

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At the end of the day, it’s gonna be a school and it’s gonna get opened and it’s gonna be used for the next a hundred years.

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Right.

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So what we wanna create, I think a lot about this as I’ve worked, and you know, California has some of the strongest teachers unions in, in, in the country, and I’ll credit to that.

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But radically student centered means this is not the adult experience anymore, right?

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This is not the maintenance preferred experience and understanding janitorial staff and all of them, they’re all matter.

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Do not get me wrong, but it’s not the way we’ve done schools, right?

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We haven’t done schools.

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For the students.

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By the students and, and how they do.

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Right?

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There’s that clothing company from, you know, I think it’s still around, but you know, FUBU for you by, for us.

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By us, right?

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It’s, it’s back.

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Okay.

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It’s coming back, um, for us, by us and, and it’s like, that’s what a school is, right?

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It, it should be about the kids.

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It should be, about how they learn.

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It should be owned by the students, not the staff.

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And, and it should be totally focused.

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Every decision we make every day should be focused on how is this making this space better?

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long answer.

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That’s kind of what I’ve been thinking about from a radically student centered,

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Carla Cummins: perspective.

00:17:43.871 –> 00:17:59.711
Jesse Miller: And, and even if you think back to how we’ve learned in how schools have operated from the, from the rows of desk and the single purpose rooms and long corridors, and, you know, they were really optimized for managing students.

00:18:00.481 –> 00:18:06.511
Going back to the control, the factory models, right?

00:18:06.511 –> 00:18:15.001
As kids were brought into schools for only till eighth grade, and then out into the workforce and into the factories, it was all for managing.

00:18:15.481 –> 00:18:19.471
And I think radically students centered can flip that, right?

00:18:19.531 –> 00:18:31.769
The building supports how they learn, how they collaborate, the movement, the ownership, the belonging, and even going into the future, like what is it, what is school even for?

00:18:31.769 –> 00:18:32.009
Right?

00:18:32.009 –> 00:18:41.309
We have ai, you know, like does AI give the facts and now schools are gonna be the experience and how to actually be humans in the world.

00:18:41.309 –> 00:18:41.729
I don’t know.

00:18:41.789 –> 00:18:42.689
It’s fascinating.

00:18:42.689 –> 00:18:43.619
Time in education.

00:18:43.619 –> 00:18:45.869
I think we’re at one of those inflection points.

00:18:46.211 –> 00:18:50.501
the pandemic was also an inflection point and changing things radically.

00:18:50.831 –> 00:18:59.831
And now we’re in this like, okay, we’re five years, six years beyond, but now what is this new for future we’re living in so exciting times.

00:19:00.457 –> 00:19:00.967
Carla Cummins: Absolutely.

00:19:01.537 –> 00:19:10.078
Um, Jeff, I, I think, I know you’ve answered that question, but I just wonder from a person who’s been in the educational.

00:19:12.088 –> 00:19:13.138
Circuit, I don’t know.

00:19:13.378 –> 00:19:13.918
Room.

00:19:13.948 –> 00:19:14.398
Right.

00:19:14.458 –> 00:19:18.448
You obviously have been an administrator and a teacher and every other aspect of it.

00:19:19.228 –> 00:19:20.608
For you, what does it mean?

00:19:21.155 –> 00:19:24.610
I’ve never gotten to ask you this, by the way, so I’m sorry if I’m putting you on the spot.

00:19:25.225 –> 00:19:31.850
Jeff Kubiak: I, It’s important because what one of the things Jesse just brought up was, you know, from the teacher’s perspective, right?

00:19:31.850 –> 00:19:34.310
And you know, teachers are amazing.

00:19:34.610 –> 00:19:37.220
They’re not paid enough, their benefits aren’t great enough.

00:19:37.220 –> 00:19:37.850
This, this and this.

00:19:38.360 –> 00:19:39.440
Put that aside.

00:19:39.980 –> 00:19:43.010
And remember, they only have a job because, right.

00:19:43.010 –> 00:19:44.000
And so what is that?

00:19:44.030 –> 00:19:46.340
Because the why and it’s the student so.

00:19:48.665 –> 00:19:51.755
Am I improving the work that that child’s doing?

00:19:52.025 –> 00:19:53.465
Am I making their life better?

00:19:53.465 –> 00:19:57.155
Are they, am I making them feel more safe, more supported?

00:19:57.995 –> 00:19:58.655
What is it?

00:19:58.655 –> 00:20:06.365
And so radically student centered means that we have to, we as adult humans have to be able to give up some power.

00:20:07.685 –> 00:20:12.335
Take some risks and have the courage for the change to happen.

00:20:12.335 –> 00:20:12.725
Right?

00:20:12.725 –> 00:20:15.665
And it’s okay that students take charge.

00:20:15.695 –> 00:20:20.285
It’s okay that I don’t have to sit up front and be the sage on the stage all day.

00:20:20.465 –> 00:20:32.188
It is okay for our next generations to be better than us, to be smarter than us, and to take what we have and make it exponentially better.

00:20:37.199 –> 00:20:41.939
You know, when we work with schools at K12 it’s not just about furniture design, it’s about impact.

00:20:42.179 –> 00:20:46.319
Our radically student-centered approach puts students at the center of every decision.

00:20:46.679 –> 00:20:52.949
From that first conversation to the final walkthrough, we’re focused on creating spaces that actually work for the kids.

00:20:53.369 –> 00:20:54.719
Teachers and the community.

00:20:55.019 –> 00:21:00.299
So if you’re looking to do more than just check a box on your next project, let’s talk Visit k12.com.

00:21:00.299 –> 00:21:09.029
That’s K-A-Y-T-W-E-L-V-E.com and see how we’re helping schools transform learning one student at a time.

00:21:09.359 –> 00:21:13.439
Because at K12 it’s not just about projects and furniture, it’s about purpose.

00:21:18.427 –> 00:21:34.167
Carla Cummins: So ultimately when you, when you look at the philosophy behind radically student centered or Jesse Miller’s philosophy behind radically student
centered, how do you think that that impacts, and influences projects and the decisions that you make in each, project that you do or that you participate in?

00:21:34.167 –> 00:21:34.437
Right?

00:21:34.437 –> 00:21:35.637
Like, what does that look like?

00:21:35.851 –> 00:21:47.976
Jesse Miller: first and foremost, I think it changes your priorities immediately, so many of our school districts are dealing with either, increased population, declining enrollment, program based type designs.

00:21:48.006 –> 00:21:51.996
But if you really focus on the, and they’re trying to accommodate.

00:21:52.104 –> 00:21:53.184
pupil size, right?

00:21:53.228 –> 00:22:04.748
and if you instead ask of how many classrooms fit in this school, or this or that, and we ask, you know, how many ways can the students learn in the spaces we’re providing?

00:22:04.808 –> 00:22:17.378
I think it leads us to so many different choices when we’re in the design phase and programming phase outside of, you know, checking the boxes that we’re gonna deliver a school.

00:22:18.098 –> 00:22:20.618
You know, 12 new classrooms, right?

00:22:20.648 –> 00:22:26.978
We’re gonna do, instead, we’re now looking at maybe flex learning areas instead of corridors, right?

00:22:27.008 –> 00:22:30.835
Breakout zones instead of, unused square footage.

00:22:30.943 –> 00:22:36.911
natural light, visibility to reduce anxiety and improve engagement.

00:22:36.911 –> 00:22:37.391
Right?

00:22:37.541 –> 00:22:40.571
The, you know, I’m talking about this upcoming, I mean, things like.

00:22:41.061 –> 00:22:46.101
SELs and all of this mental health and never used to be part of an education program.

00:22:46.101 –> 00:22:49.865
It’s now in every district’s LA practically, right?

00:22:50.077 –> 00:22:54.967
our, our world has changed and, you know, career tech spaces, I brought that up a little bit ago.

00:22:54.997 –> 00:22:57.787
You know, that feel real and not simulated.

00:22:57.787 –> 00:22:59.617
I talked about the Dr.

00:22:59.617 –> 00:23:01.779
Dre performing arts center, right?

00:23:01.779 –> 00:23:04.743
If we’re preparing kids, and again, I know.

00:23:05.408 –> 00:23:15.128
You know, we pushed everyone to go to college, you know, and whether that’s the right choice or not, and whether everyone can, but if these kids at, you know, K 12 facilities are experiencing things.

00:23:16.223 –> 00:23:18.593
That the real world already offers.

00:23:19.253 –> 00:23:24.143
They already have the talent and you know, you, you just don’t know what, uh, can happen.

00:23:24.143 –> 00:23:30.293
There’s a story, the, the, the, the tale at Centennial High School is that, you know, they set up a portable.

00:23:30.978 –> 00:23:35.328
With a bunch of musical equipment for Kendrick Lamar when he was a student there.

00:23:35.388 –> 00:23:42.158
Right Now imagine that he didn’t have a portable, he had an actual space that had the equipment.

00:23:42.158 –> 00:23:47.258
Like how much different, you know, could this Grammy award-winning artist have done?

00:23:47.348 –> 00:23:47.828
Right.

00:23:48.218 –> 00:23:51.218
Um, so spaces, you know, students wanna stay in.

00:23:51.218 –> 00:23:55.658
That’s the biggest one I think, you know, as a kid in.

00:23:56.293 –> 00:24:03.335
Going through K 12, I was like, last to arrive at school and first to leave, like boom and boom, get me outta here.

00:24:03.335 –> 00:24:03.755
Right.

00:24:03.755 –> 00:24:07.655
And which is funny, I look back at my educational career and think how funny it is.

00:24:07.655 –> 00:24:09.755
I hated hated school so much.

00:24:09.755 –> 00:24:10.085
Right.

00:24:10.085 –> 00:24:10.475
You know?

00:24:10.535 –> 00:24:16.144
Um, but now we talk about like, some of the schools I’ve designed and been a part of like.

00:24:16.674 –> 00:24:20.754
They can’t kick kids off campus like it.

00:24:20.754 –> 00:24:39.344
They’re open till 9:00 PM 10:00 PM and kids still wanna be in these spaces learning with from each other, which is really, you know, if we
really get deep here, uh, that is the education of the future is kids learning from other kids, not necessarily the teacher on, on the stage.

00:24:39.344 –> 00:24:39.734
Right.

00:24:39.734 –> 00:24:41.714
It’s the group work, it’s the collaboration.

00:24:42.188 –> 00:24:44.468
Carla Cummins: too, that the definition of success, right?

00:24:44.468 –> 00:24:47.678
You build a space where people want to be and that those kids want to

00:24:47.678 –> 00:24:54.488
be, and to me, I think that that’s, that describes success when it comes to design.

00:24:54.548 –> 00:25:01.448
And what a district has been capable of achieving, especially with commun, with the school culture and community culture and every other thing.

00:25:01.448 –> 00:25:04.778
Not to interrupt you, sorry, but you’re like big points,

00:25:05.018 –> 00:25:05.348
Jesse Miller: Yeah.

00:25:05.378 –> 00:25:05.918
No, no, no.

00:25:06.098 –> 00:25:07.388
I think, no, it’s great.

00:25:07.388 –> 00:25:23.288
I mean, because like when we design those type of spaces, what you actually do, if we go back into and do a, a post occupancy evaluation, those are the schools, those are the spaces that, you know, behavior problems go down, right?

00:25:24.098 –> 00:25:27.728
Staff workload actually improves, right?

00:25:27.728 –> 00:25:29.948
Because, you know, it’s almost like.

00:25:30.278 –> 00:25:46.268
Paradoxical, and you know, you wouldn’t think this stuff occurs, but you know, you have to understand the human rational side of things for it to make sense versus how we’ve always done it and how education has always been delivered.

00:25:46.448 –> 00:25:48.728
And I think it does take trust.

00:25:48.728 –> 00:25:56.498
It takes, you know, there’s a scariness to spending, you know, $50 million on a new building and.

00:25:57.068 –> 00:25:57.728
Oh my gosh.

00:25:57.728 –> 00:26:01.898
We’re gonna try this as an experiment, but it’s not really an experiment ’cause it works.

00:26:01.928 –> 00:26:02.408
Right.

00:26:02.468 –> 00:26:05.648
Um, and there’s enough case studies to prove this works.

00:26:05.648 –> 00:26:06.008
Right.

00:26:06.968 –> 00:26:22.787
I think back as we were talking about learning as if we talk about philosophies, I just think about myself now all the time as a student and I was a kid that I cannot, cannot listen to a lecture.

00:26:23.057 –> 00:26:23.537
I can’t.

00:26:24.017 –> 00:26:26.507
I’m gonna doodle, I’m gonna, you’re, I’m gonna tune ’em out.

00:26:26.567 –> 00:26:29.762
Everything I have to do, the minute I do, I learn.

00:26:30.872 –> 00:26:40.712
And I learn it real quick, but trying to soak in information, trying to read it myself, trying to do all that stuff doesn’t work with me.

00:26:40.772 –> 00:26:42.752
I in one ear, out the other.

00:26:42.812 –> 00:26:49.232
But, um, but if you just let me experiment and do it, I would learn it right away, you know?

00:26:49.232 –> 00:26:54.392
So I think, you know, as we talk philosophy, and again, that’s where.

00:26:54.767 –> 00:26:59.207
How these kids learn, how many ways can they learn?

00:26:59.327 –> 00:27:04.727
How do we provide those opportunities for them to do the learning, how they wanna do it?

00:27:04.757 –> 00:27:06.137
That’s the key.

00:27:06.197 –> 00:27:11.867
And then you’ll see, by default, you’ll see the behavior problems go down.

00:27:11.867 –> 00:27:18.647
You’ll see the test scores go up, you’ll see the information, stay with these kids, and then you’ll see.

00:27:19.002 –> 00:27:23.022
You know, what we ultimately want too is a satisfied teacher workforce.

00:27:23.292 –> 00:27:32.637
They’ll be happier, you know, that, you know, they’re not having to be, so many different things that they play nurses, uh, therapist, right.

00:27:32.677 –> 00:27:35.947
Carla Cummins: I always say like, you look at schools, right?

00:27:35.947 –> 00:27:36.667
And you have kids.

00:27:36.667 –> 00:27:38.107
I don’t, we had someone last time.

00:27:38.107 –> 00:27:39.097
I’m like, you have two kids, right?

00:27:39.097 –> 00:27:40.267
And she’s like, no, I have no kids.

00:27:40.267 –> 00:27:41.197
And I’m like, gosh, okay.

00:27:41.197 –> 00:27:41.857
I don’t know how that happened.

00:27:42.842 –> 00:27:48.152
Our teachers spend more waking hours with our kids than we do as parents.

00:27:48.152 –> 00:27:55.622
And you think about who influences the future of, you know, our future and.

00:27:56.342 –> 00:27:57.482
Teachers have.

00:27:57.512 –> 00:28:03.602
That’s a big component of what they do, whether or not people realize it or not.

00:28:03.602 –> 00:28:08.582
But as a parent, I have always, I’m like, what does what as my kid’s teacher, what do you need me to do?

00:28:08.582 –> 00:28:12.902
Because you have more time with her or him or whoever than I do.

00:28:12.902 –> 00:28:14.402
So how can I support you?

00:28:14.702 –> 00:28:16.262
I don’t need you to support me.

00:28:16.322 –> 00:28:20.882
I need to support you because you have a heft of 28 to 32 kids.

00:28:21.152 –> 00:28:24.152
I’ve just got this one knucklehead in my house.

00:28:24.274 –> 00:28:25.291
that you get more time with.

00:28:25.291 –> 00:28:25.531
Right.

00:28:25.531 –> 00:28:32.331
And so they’re molding more of our kids than what we sometimes care to realize and give them credit for.

00:28:32.931 –> 00:28:33.231
Yeah.

00:28:33.441 –> 00:28:59.301
Jeff Kubiak: Which, which is, you know, important because, you know, firms like PPK and what we do at K 12 and a lot of people, by including the teachers and the, and the, you know, stakeholders and everything into those, you
know, vision, conversations and, and collaborative workshops or what, whatever you want to call it, allowing them the opportunities to share how they facilitate or how they’re willing to take risks is ultimately important as well.

00:28:59.301 –> 00:29:01.401
Because if we have the adults.

00:29:02.001 –> 00:29:12.621
That are watching the children teach each other, and who can recognize that I’m actually facilitating and I’m gonna teach, I’m gonna be an expert in some areas, but I’m not always gonna do that.

00:29:12.621 –> 00:29:12.951
Right.

00:29:13.611 –> 00:29:16.251
That, that’s a big part of what you think too, isn’t it, Jesse?

00:29:16.251 –> 00:29:17.116
What of the work you guys do?

00:29:17.721 –> 00:29:18.681
Jesse Miller: I mean a hundred percent.

00:29:18.681 –> 00:29:24.771
You know, I always advocate our districts to, first and foremost, when we’re programming and planning these to include teachers.

00:29:24.771 –> 00:29:25.071
Right?

00:29:25.071 –> 00:29:26.721
We have got to hear them.

00:29:27.076 –> 00:29:36.466
The next level to that though is having student workshops because teachers will inherently, and I’ve.

00:29:37.756 –> 00:29:40.006
Grow victim to this myself, right?

00:29:40.006 –> 00:29:45.106
You think about your current day job, you think about the current way you’re teaching.

00:29:45.106 –> 00:29:48.886
You think about, oh man, I don’t wanna learn another thing, so I’m not gonna tell ’em.

00:29:48.916 –> 00:29:54.406
Like, I don’t wanna raise my hand and say, we really should be doing this because I’m just trying to learn what I’m trying to do right now.

00:29:54.436 –> 00:29:54.766
Right?

00:29:55.173 –> 00:30:01.023
But it’s the students, when you get to the student workshops, then, then they’re like, oh no, this is where we think what we need.

00:30:01.023 –> 00:30:01.293
Right?

00:30:01.293 –> 00:30:08.073
And so you get this juxtaposition of ideas of where teachers wanna go, where kids wanna go, and then where’s that in between.

00:30:08.073 –> 00:30:10.618
I always tell teachers my first workshop always.

00:30:11.633 –> 00:30:17.963
When we’re doing this is, I want you to think 15 years in the future of what you need.

00:30:17.993 –> 00:30:23.753
It’s hard they to stretch their thinking sometimes, because a lot of times they wanna say, I need more storage space.

00:30:23.753 –> 00:30:25.990
I need more, I need more whiteboards.

00:30:25.990 –> 00:30:27.010
I need more of this.

00:30:27.010 –> 00:30:27.310
Right?

00:30:27.310 –> 00:30:28.210
But it’s like, no.

00:30:28.300 –> 00:30:32.050
Imagine a world where you are not doing what you’re doing.

00:30:32.770 –> 00:30:36.070
This is not how you’re delivering education anymore, right?

00:30:36.070 –> 00:30:36.280
So

00:30:36.320 –> 00:30:36.530
Carla Cummins: Yeah.

00:30:36.530 –> 00:30:38.570
Well, and it’s like, what’s the future you need?

00:30:38.570 –> 00:30:47.300
And it, and too, like if you had a new teacher come in, you know, you’re 10 years down the road in your career and you have a brand new teacher come in, what is that teacher gonna need?

00:30:47.300 –> 00:30:48.950
And what can you set up for them?

00:30:49.280 –> 00:30:56.180
Because you’re paving that path, like you’re, you’re writing the story for them and the way that they’re gonna come in and they’re just have to redress it.

00:30:56.510 –> 00:30:56.810
So.

00:30:57.457 –> 00:30:59.227
we have that hurdle all the time too.

00:30:59.377 –> 00:31:06.907
But it’s a big question because it does come to the i, me, this is my struggle right now.

00:31:07.207 –> 00:31:09.397
But if that struggle wasn’t there, what would it look

00:31:09.667 –> 00:31:10.897
Jesse Miller: Yeah, remove it.

00:31:10.897 –> 00:31:11.377
All right.

00:31:11.377 –> 00:31:17.347
And you get, and again, you’re gonna have different generations of teachers within a school and each one of them sees it different.

00:31:17.347 –> 00:31:17.789
Right.

00:31:17.833 –> 00:31:20.203
so I think it’s just understanding the full perspective.

00:31:20.203 –> 00:31:24.643
Each school also has its own community, its own set of.

00:31:24.887 –> 00:31:29.957
visions and goals and what works and, and what that community is about.

00:31:29.957 –> 00:31:34.847
And so, you know, you really gotta understand where they wanna take it as well.

00:31:34.847 –> 00:31:41.447
So even, you know, if we can get community workshops in our projects, we definitely try to advocate for that as well.

00:31:41.447 –> 00:31:43.097
And here all the voices, right?

00:31:43.127 –> 00:31:48.759
Um, at the end of the day, we’ve gotta make it all work within a budget, within a defined program, but.

00:31:48.946 –> 00:32:01.066
when you think about the impact a project has that we’re putting a building that’s gonna last 50 to a hundred years, you really don’t wanna leave any, uh, stone unturned of what this space really should be.

00:32:01.066 –> 00:32:03.646
Because if you do, then we didn’t do our job.

00:32:03.856 –> 00:32:09.946
As, as architects and designers to really understand the education that needs to be delivered there.

00:32:10.036 –> 00:32:10.459
Right.

00:32:10.594 –> 00:32:13.294
you know, at our firm, you know, we definitely do that.

00:32:13.294 –> 00:32:22.553
We take a, the, that, that measured approach, bring the educators in, bring the students in, and get the, buy-in and the, and the excitement.

00:32:22.673 –> 00:32:27.863
You know, if we can build excitement before ribbon cutting day, that’s always a great thing and.

00:32:27.922 –> 00:32:29.831
cause projects take a long time, right?

00:32:29.831 –> 00:32:37.151
And, and a lot of times the students that are giving you their input won’t even be the students that get to experience the space.

00:32:37.151 –> 00:32:37.571
Right.

00:32:37.571 –> 00:32:44.981
But they’re excited for the future generations of the, either their younger brothers or sisters coming beyond behind them, you know?

00:32:45.524 –> 00:32:51.824
Carla Cummins: I know, uh, Jennifer, my daughter was the f the freshman class in a new school, and she was able to sit on one of those design.

00:32:52.234 –> 00:33:03.124
One of the design committees going into it, but it opened with just a freshman class, this large high school, and it was one class of freshmen that were in there and it grew and she was just like, how cool is it?

00:33:03.124 –> 00:33:04.624
And then my brother went to that school.

00:33:04.774 –> 00:33:20.443
So it’s, you know, it it does, it, it sort of leaves that, what’s the biggest takeaway when it comes to, I’ll go back to radically
student centered, that you want people to remember about radically student centered as it relates to whatever it is that you do, right?

00:33:20.443 –> 00:33:23.773
Like what’s a takeaway you want to leave listeners with?

00:33:24.033 –> 00:33:25.713
I mean, what if it’s a challenge, right?

00:33:25.713 –> 00:33:27.573
Can you challenge people to do something

00:33:27.813 –> 00:33:29.523
Jesse Miller: Well, I mean, I would challenge us.

00:33:29.523 –> 00:33:46.368
I would challenge us that, you know, as a profession that is impacting generations to think bigger and think better and think outside of education, architecture is a business.

00:33:46.677 –> 00:33:58.050
I always tell people all the time that had worked on my teams that this is the one architectural sector that can impact the world bigger than any of the other ones.

00:33:58.620 –> 00:34:02.430
And, and I said, great hospitality’s, great.

00:34:02.435 –> 00:34:04.950
Love a nice hotel, love a good restaurant.

00:34:05.340 –> 00:34:06.270
Doesn’t leave me like.

00:34:07.290 –> 00:34:09.960
Bettering my kids’ life, right?

00:34:10.136 –> 00:34:15.056
you know, transportation, and again, not to knock on any sector, but I just feel that education.

00:34:16.016 –> 00:34:17.666
We all have to go through it.

00:34:18.146 –> 00:34:26.906
Every American has to go through the education system, whether that’s private, public, charter, neither here nor there.

00:34:26.906 –> 00:34:29.306
You’re going to get some even homeschooling, right?

00:34:29.306 –> 00:34:40.616
We’re designing schools for, uh, school districts to have their homeschool students go to a place that they can actually learn these, you know, skills a little better.

00:34:40.616 –> 00:34:42.506
So that they’re, they’re, they’re at least.

00:34:42.682 –> 00:34:48.652
Experiencing these environments that the public school kids are, even if you’re homeschooled, right.

00:34:48.757 –> 00:35:00.678
so really the challenge that I’d put forth to so many of the firms that do educational architecture, educational design, is to slow down.

00:35:00.933 –> 00:35:13.923
Pause for a minute and go back to what that radically student centered philosophy that I have is, is everything we’re doing for the student and is it really making their learning better and why?

00:35:14.313 –> 00:35:14.703
Right.

00:35:14.733 –> 00:35:20.523
You’ll see a lot of rooms and we pick color schemes and you know, we put up a blue wall.

00:35:21.003 –> 00:35:24.183
My question to our interiors team was always, why blue?

00:35:24.526 –> 00:35:25.246
It looks pretty.

00:35:25.276 –> 00:35:26.836
Okay, but that’s not a why.

00:35:27.376 –> 00:35:28.966
A why is that?

00:35:28.966 –> 00:35:36.646
Blue color has the statistics behind it that say it’ll increase learning outcomes by 15%, right?

00:35:36.646 –> 00:35:38.926
Every thought should be thought through.

00:35:39.190 –> 00:35:42.460
when you’re designing a building, I’d used to challenge my team.

00:35:42.810 –> 00:35:48.690
all the time to create 3D visual models and walkthroughs of our designs.

00:35:48.690 –> 00:35:58.080
And I want to walk through slowly and turn around 360 and if every space isn’t designed the best that it possibly could, then we’ve failed.

00:35:58.590 –> 00:36:01.440
I’ve been to too many schools that are really beautiful there.

00:36:02.100 –> 00:36:09.030
They’re award-winning schools, but there’s always locations within that school that look like they weren’t really well thought through.

00:36:09.030 –> 00:36:10.811
They were, they were either.

00:36:10.851 –> 00:36:18.716
Back a house, they were, you know, CTE corridors or things like that, that could have been better, right?

00:36:18.716 –> 00:36:26.306
Like every square foot of a school should be the best it possibly can be because somebody’s gonna experience that square footage, right?

00:36:26.606 –> 00:36:31.016
At some point a student is gonna walk through every square footage of your building.

00:36:31.071 –> 00:36:35.204
In some way, shape, or form, another, even bathrooms even, everywhere, right?

00:36:35.204 –> 00:36:42.037
And so how do we create spaces, that really resonate and provide opportunity?

00:36:42.037 –> 00:36:45.397
I think about like, even just corridor nooks, right?

00:36:45.397 –> 00:36:57.709
Like sometimes you have like little nooks, like could you have fit A little piece of desk there that a student could just stop down with their laptop and learn in a spot that used to not be anything, right.

00:36:57.709 –> 00:37:01.609
Used to just be a blank corridor piece, you know, and, and a corner or something.

00:37:01.834 –> 00:37:06.544
we have a project at, uh, one school where it was an existing campus modernization.

00:37:06.897 –> 00:37:09.117
corridors double loaded, right?

00:37:09.147 –> 00:37:10.587
Nothing we could really change.

00:37:10.587 –> 00:37:16.197
Budget, didn’t do do much, but we, we, we took the lockers out and created.

00:37:17.247 –> 00:37:27.907
By taking the lockers out, created, uh, nooks and learning spaces that allowed, you know, monitors in the corridor, like little breakout spaces, right?

00:37:27.907 –> 00:37:30.307
Or students work on display, right?

00:37:30.307 –> 00:37:34.327
Like I’m a big, I preach a lot about, I want to have learning on display.

00:37:34.537 –> 00:37:36.667
Kids need to shop their future.

00:37:36.697 –> 00:37:38.707
They need to walk through a campus.

00:37:39.577 –> 00:37:45.637
And they need to see what other kids are doing because, hey, maybe I have an interest in that in the future.

00:37:45.637 –> 00:37:57.547
Because if the goal of our designs isn’t to give kids an idea of what they want to do with their rest of their life, like then we’ve kind of failed, right?

00:37:57.547 –> 00:38:02.287
We don’t wanna send kids to college and have them switch majors 12 times.

00:38:02.287 –> 00:38:06.637
They should already have had the passion for a particular.

00:38:07.087 –> 00:38:12.697
Field, not necessarily the major, but for a particular field before they even get to college, right?

00:38:12.697 –> 00:38:19.777
Like, I’ve seen this on display, I’ve been in a CTE class, I’ve seen my friends and they do the homework.

00:38:19.807 –> 00:38:20.767
I wanna do that.

00:38:20.767 –> 00:38:22.927
You know, I think that’s where.

00:38:22.962 –> 00:38:29.112
I would really challenge our profession to think about the students, think about their futures.

00:38:29.117 –> 00:38:36.492
I, I think a lot of times we think about kids in the present, like, how are we going to teach them right now?

00:38:36.522 –> 00:38:37.512
Right here?

00:38:38.542 –> 00:38:43.912
But I would say, I wanna know what that kid, like, how are we gonna teach ’em right here and right now?

00:38:44.122 –> 00:38:47.632
But how is that gonna impact them 20 years from now?

00:38:47.632 –> 00:38:54.352
Because now they’re sitting in my position or they’re sitting in your guys’ position and they’re having.

00:38:54.717 –> 00:39:10.827
The same conversations we have, but just 20 years in the future, or their former or their future CEOs or their future educators, and they
can sit back and they can be like, well, I want a school like this because this is what worked for me when I was a kid and it led me here.

00:39:10.857 –> 00:39:22.038
You know, think the biggest, biggest roadblock to doing what we need to do is, Parents saying, you know, well, it was good enough for me.

00:39:22.098 –> 00:39:27.228
It should be good enough for my kid, you know, as we talk about education in schools, right?

00:39:27.618 –> 00:39:28.908
But we could get rid of that.

00:39:28.908 –> 00:39:39.738
Well, let’s stop thinking that way and think about how in the future, you know, we’re gonna have all these successful people because of the spaces we created.

00:39:40.323 –> 00:39:44.523
Carla Cummins: Well, everything’s so different from what worked for me to what’s gonna work for even my kids.

00:39:44.523 –> 00:39:47.283
Now I look at, you know, I have a gap with my kids.

00:39:47.283 –> 00:40:02.853
I have a 27-year-old and a and a 15-year-old, and what was okay for that 27-year-old and what worked for her is not working for the 15-year-old just because of, you know, evolution of, you know, everything so well.

00:40:02.853 –> 00:40:04.418
Jeff, what do you think?

00:40:04.957 –> 00:40:13.327
Jeff Kubiak: I can’t wait to, to look at the evolution of, uh, Jesse’s work and, and, you know, the, the lives you’re touching it, it’s, it’s, it’s amazing.

00:40:13.327 –> 00:40:17.437
I love the work that you’re doing and, and, um, what you’re preaching.

00:40:17.557 –> 00:40:19.242
It’s, it’s real and it’s prudent.

00:40:19.837 –> 00:40:20.257
Jesse Miller: Mm-hmm.

00:40:20.472 –> 00:40:20.952
Yeah.

00:40:21.012 –> 00:40:26.265
I mean, we didn’t have TikTok, you know, when I was going to school as a, an educator.

00:40:26.295 –> 00:40:26.595
Right.

00:40:26.595 –> 00:40:28.185
But TikTok is an educator now.

00:40:28.185 –> 00:40:29.685
Like you gotta think that way, right?

00:40:29.715 –> 00:40:34.995
Um, and so, you know, I just think back to my education.

00:40:34.995 –> 00:40:39.195
I had one architecture class offered.

00:40:39.900 –> 00:40:47.910
In high school and it was a shop class and, and we built, you know, so you actually had to use machines to build a house, but you used cad.

00:40:48.201 –> 00:40:59.991
I see the spaces we’re creating now with the CTEs and all that stuff, like how much more could I have been confident in the career I chose before I even chose it, right?

00:40:59.991 –> 00:41:00.651
Like had I been

00:41:00.681 –> 00:41:02.751
Carla Cummins: Is that what made you choose your career?

00:41:02.991 –> 00:41:03.141
Was

00:41:03.276 –> 00:41:06.756
Jesse Miller: know, honestly, it go, goes back to Lincoln Logs.

00:41:06.756 –> 00:41:08.346
You remember Lincoln Logs?

00:41:08.586 –> 00:41:08.706
Carla Cummins: I

00:41:08.976 –> 00:41:09.466
Jeff Kubiak: Totally.

00:41:09.546 –> 00:41:09.746
Carla Cummins: have

00:41:10.016 –> 00:41:10.306
logs.

00:41:10.986 –> 00:41:13.216
Jesse Miller: Lincoln Logs, you know.

00:41:13.911 –> 00:41:26.241
Yeah, they, uh, I liked building things and so Lincoln Logs were my first set, not Legos, um, but Lincoln Logs and Lincoln Logs, you know, always built a house or built a building, right?

00:41:26.241 –> 00:41:28.371
Different than Legos, you could build anything, right.

00:41:28.431 –> 00:41:32.646
So kind of, it set the course of my life.

00:41:32.646 –> 00:41:36.051
I knew where I was going right out of high school.

00:41:36.051 –> 00:41:38.661
I knew the, you know, I never wavered, right.

00:41:39.454 –> 00:41:48.934
if I would’ve had those programs, I look at kids nowadays and I just think I, and even my daughter, like even probably your daughters Carla, like, I just feel like, man, you’re not taking advantage.

00:41:48.934 –> 00:41:58.444
Like I didn’t even have these things back then, and I would’ve been in so many programs and doing all these things if I just had gotten the offerings, you know?

00:41:58.914 –> 00:42:04.305
Carla Cummins: my, my meeting at her school this morning, if we’re sitting in there with all of her teachers and it’s like, well, what can you do?

00:42:04.305 –> 00:42:08.415
Like, how can you take advantage of what’s offered to you because it’s offered for you.

00:42:09.225 –> 00:42:09.645
Right.

00:42:09.645 –> 00:42:11.355
Like it’s for you.

00:42:11.355 –> 00:42:14.985
So what are you gonna do with something that is just at your fingertips?

00:42:15.315 –> 00:42:19.125
And she walked out and she’s just like, I don’t know what you meant by that.

00:42:19.321 –> 00:42:24.511
And I said, well, I mean, there’s so many opportunities that you’re missing out on.

00:42:24.511 –> 00:42:29.611
So what can, what the school offers do for you and how can you participate in it?

00:42:29.611 –> 00:42:30.511
How can you get involved?

00:42:30.511 –> 00:42:32.911
And she’s like, I’ll think about it.

00:42:33.332 –> 00:42:33.962
Jesse Miller: Well, I mean, and

00:42:34.127 –> 00:42:34.217
Carla Cummins: What?

00:42:34.772 –> 00:42:36.002
Jesse Miller: that’s what you’re doing, right?

00:42:36.002 –> 00:42:51.139
When and when we’re building these schools and when we’re doing and when, Educators and curriculum directors are, are working in schools to
develop their curriculum and their programs, and superintendents and boards are looking at the job markets and what should we be offering our kids?

00:42:51.139 –> 00:43:00.359
It’s like every moment is a chance to choose between what’s easiest for the system, what’s easiest for the kids, right?

00:43:00.691 –> 00:43:00.931
what?

00:43:00.931 –> 00:43:03.061
Your daughter just, ah, yeah, I’ll think about it.

00:43:03.061 –> 00:43:03.151
Right.

00:43:03.766 –> 00:43:04.501
Carla Cummins: I consider.

00:43:04.756 –> 00:43:07.756
Jesse Miller: Or what’s best for the student’s future.

00:43:07.756 –> 00:43:08.146
Right.

00:43:08.146 –> 00:43:13.126
You know, sometimes stuff doesn’t align and sometimes it does.

00:43:13.126 –> 00:43:25.616
And, I think, again, going back to the takeaway is just, you know, if we’re everything we do, if it doesn’t improve a student’s, you know, daily experience, then, then, then it’s probably not the right decision.

00:43:26.156 –> 00:43:28.346
And we probably made an error somewhere.

00:43:28.346 –> 00:43:30.686
And those errors have consequences.

00:43:30.686 –> 00:43:41.265
Like that’s the other thing we need to understand is like errors in our field have consequences on kids learning and teachers teaching and the future of our, country and world, right?

00:43:41.265 –> 00:43:41.475
So

00:43:42.270 –> 00:43:45.900
Carla Cummins: Well, and not short term consequences because look at how long you just said that.

00:43:45.978 –> 00:43:47.793
these buildings last, they’re long term.

00:43:47.873 –> 00:43:50.373
Jesse Miller: yeah, they’re long term consequences, right.

00:43:50.897 –> 00:43:54.377
Carla Cummins: Well thank you for joining us and thank you, Jeff for being the host.

00:43:54.377 –> 00:43:57.437
I’m so glad that I got to be your co-host and be here with Jesse.

00:43:57.437 –> 00:44:03.737
So if you enjoyed what you’re listening to, go and subscribe to the Better Learning Podcast on all of the different channels.

00:44:03.879 –> 00:44:05.769
and we’ll look forward to talking to you next time.

00:44:08.033 –> 00:44:12.453
The Better Learning Podcast is produced by Matt Rogers and edited by Kelly Jones.

00:44:13.113 –> 00:44:22.503
The views and opinions shared on this podcast are those of the individual speaking and do not necessarily represent the perspectives of their affiliated companies, organizations, or associations.